Dare to Dream
The Wall Street Journal recently discussed a bill that Senator Dick Durbin plans to introduce sometime this week.
The Dream Act is being touted as a bipartisan alternative to fast-tracking citizenship for tens of thousands of undocumented residents, however, as the WSJ notes, one of its provisions has a unique militaristic twist.
In a nutshell, the Act would essentially grant citizenship to any illegal alien that enlists and serves in the military for at least two years.
Unsurprisingly, key members of the military establishment have vocally supported this measure, believing that it would not only entice an “underrepresented” minority to serve but also help fulfill “innovative” recruitment goals (e.g., in addition to “quick-ship” bonuses, lower physical and aptitude standards have been implemented to widen the pool of eligible candidates).
Bills such as these are reminiscent of the creation of entities like the French Foreign Legion, who offer similar amnesty incentives to foreigners seeking citizenship.
It would be interesting to find out exactly how the political class will define a national army 10 years from now. After all, more than half of the occupation troops in Iraq are actually mercenaries due to their “privateer” status, what is an army comprised of non-citizens?
Lowell
September 23rd, 2007 at 1:30 am
Perhaps the plan is that all the people from the countries we are fighting will defect to our side and fight for us…
R. Nelson
September 23rd, 2007 at 1:53 am
The book shouldn’t be titled “Are We Rome?” but “Are We Dumb?”.
Alex Temal
September 23rd, 2007 at 2:57 am
Well, it seems like a good idea at first to let the Mexicans and other impoverished foreigners fight our wars for us. However, that would serve to even further distance the military from the civilian population. So, they could be more easily be ordered to fire on their “own people”. They also wouldn’t be accustomed to American standards of morality, justice, and so on. Besides that, if we can’t find Americans to fight in American wars, maybe the war isn’t a good one.
klyde
September 23rd, 2007 at 5:17 am
If they take a job with Blackwater, DynaCorp and MPRI will that count?
Mark Williams
September 23rd, 2007 at 5:26 am
Alex writes: “…that would serve to even further distance the military from the civilian population.”
Absolutely, Alex. This is hideous.
People who aren’t already American citizens should not even be eligible to enlist in our military in the first place!
This new legislation just takes a bad idea even farther. This is in the name of consistency, I suppose. But when you have a system whose premise is evil, you don’t make it better by improving its consistency.
bill kelsey
September 23rd, 2007 at 5:51 am
Many units on the Fascist side in the Spanish civil war consisted of Moroccan soldiers. On the other hand Irish conscripts in the US Army not only deserted but joined the Mexican Army in that war. So many interesting ways we could go with foreigners in our military.
Ryan
September 23rd, 2007 at 5:52 am
They should call this OPLAN BOOT, in honor of Max Boot, a big supporter of stupid ideas like this. Don’t these fools read Gibbon? If you can’t get sufficent numbers of Americans to enlist what does this tell you about this war?
hardtruth
September 23rd, 2007 at 6:44 am
“serves in the military for at least two years.”
Given “Stop Loss”, will they ever get out?
Juan
September 23rd, 2007 at 7:54 am
Do you guys know any history? Rome did not go down because of that. And remember, DREAMies came as children and have been here for at least five years.Is not the same as getting some adult that just came here. Or going to Mexico City and recruiting.
Smoke Jensen
September 23rd, 2007 at 7:56 am
@ R.Nelson
“The book shouldn’t be titled “Are We Rome?” but “Are We Dumb?””.
Perhaps more appropriately “As Romans, Are We Dumb”?
How to fix immigration. - Page 3 - Online Debate Network Forums
September 23rd, 2007 at 8:09 am
[...] Originally Posted by AMERICAFIRST Well if the mexican people are so strong, than why can’t they fight for their country and not invade this one… Actually….we are having them fight for us now! Antiwar.com notes that: The Wall Street Journal recently discussed a bill that Senator Dick Durbin plans to introduce sometime this week. The Dream Act is being touted as a bipartisan alternative to fast-tracking citizenship for tens of thousands of undocumented residents, however, as the WSJ notes, one of its provisions has a unique militaristic twist. In a nutshell, the Act would grant citizenship to any illegal alien that enlists and serves in the military for at least two years. Unsurprisingly, key members of the military establishment have vocally supported this measure, believing that it would not only entice an underrepresented minority to serve but also help fulfill innovative recruitment goals (e.g., in addition to quick-ship bonuses, lower physical and aptitude standards have been implemented to widen the pool of eligible candidates). Bills such as these are reminiscent to the creation of entities like the French Foreign Legion, who offer similar amnesty incentives to foreigners seeking citizenship. It would be interesting to find out exactly how the political class will define a national army 10 years from now. After all, more than half of the occupation troops in Iraq are actually mercenaries due to their privateer status, what is an army comprised of non-citizens? Antiwar.com Blog Dare to Dream __________________ "If you wish to know how libertarians regard the State and any of its acts, simply think of the State as a criminal band, and all of the libertarian attitudes will logically fall into place." -Murray Rothbard "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." -Henry David Thoreau [...]
Juan
September 23rd, 2007 at 8:34 am
DREAM does not grant citizenship. It gives conditional status for six years. During those six years they must do two years of military service or two years of college. After the six years they can apply for green cards. That could take a few months or years depending on the how thinsg are then. Once they get their green card they can ask for citizenship. And that could take six months or a few years.
And because individuals have grwon up here and been here for five years, they won’t be segredated. Some are outright rednecks or valley boys and know as much of america and english as any.
John Lowell
September 23rd, 2007 at 2:59 pm
A more apt comparison of the force created by this legislation might be to the Waffen SS than to the French Foreign Legion. Toward the end of the war, Himmler was ready to accept French and other nationals into what was supposedly a racially pure elite formation but the requirements of a soon to be defeated Germany forced him to set aside the prevailing standard. And besides, France doesn’t have anything in its history to compare with the Gleiwitz episode that was used by Hitler as a pretext to attack Poland in 1939. Here, perhaps is the key ingredient connecting the SS and this new force.
John Lowell
Niels Laughlin
September 23rd, 2007 at 5:07 pm
But the blowback might be that our military becomes infiltrated with the enemy…
Jaguar Paw
September 23rd, 2007 at 5:34 pm
Full disclaimer, I am Mexican-American….
That said; I support legalization of undocumented immigrants with no CRIMINAL record…but “Dream Act” provisions allowing legalization in exchange for 2 years of military service would only lengthen the war!
And the war must STOP..now!
I think one of the posters above had it right when he wrote;
“If you can’t get sufficent numbers of Americans to enlist what does this tell you about this war?”
As for the poster that writes;
“Well if the mexican people are so strong, than why can’t they fight for their country and not invade this one… Actually….we are having them fight for us now!”
The Irish didn’t fight back against the English who engineered the potato famine…did they? NO! They fled to America, where legions of Irish immigrants became soldiers (fodder?) for US wars ….many were inducted into the US military STRAIGHT OFF THE BOATS arriving from Ireland…
NO MORE WAR DAMMIT!
Juan
September 23rd, 2007 at 6:19 pm
ahh, but what is an american? some dreamies are virtual rednecks and valley boys and would die for this country.
Larry
September 24th, 2007 at 1:33 am
This has echos of the film Starship Troopers, where society is divided between Civilians and Citizens, the citizens being those who have served in the military.
Would you like to know more?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120201/
Carson
September 24th, 2007 at 5:40 am
Dream Act???
Why the special treatment?
First the government comes in to our grade schools and tells us the children we are about to conceive are “unwanted” because the population is rising so fast and the resources are stretched to their limit.
Then the Revolutionaries in the government decide there is plenty of room for the criminals in businesses illegal labor.
On top of that we are stiffed with the medical and social services of the illegal invaders.
Now you want us to send our kids straight to work to pay for these lowlifes and their illegal schemes.
Give me a break.
How much more of this do you think we OR the economy will stand?
Jaguar Paw
September 25th, 2007 at 7:07 am
Kansas Court of Appeals;
“While an illegal alien is subject to deportation, that person’s ongoing presence in the United States in and of itself is not a crime, unless that person had been previously deported and regained illegal entry into this country.”
http://www.kscourts.org/Cases-and-Opinions/opinions/ctapp//2007/20070817/96613.htm
Former Federal PROSECUTOR and mob buster, Rudy Giuliani;
“I was U.S. attorney in the southern district of New York. So believe me, I know this. In fact, when you throw an immigrant out of the country, it’s not a criminal proceeding. It’s a civil proceeding.”
“…it’s not a crime. I know that’s very hard for people to understand, but it’s not a federal crime.”
“One of the things that congress wanted to do a year ago is to make it a crime, which indicates that it isn’t.”
http://www.glennbeck.com/news/09072007.shtml
Comedians Penn and Teller annihilate the argument that undocumented immigrants are criminals…absolutely HILARIOUS to boot!
P&T on immigration 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9ffO9mLlEo&mode=related&search=
P&T immigration 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnBN0trSE3c&mode=related&search=
P&T immigration 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y13DzxfrjY&mode=related&search=
After the war mongering GOP is annihilated next year, and a Democrat is elected US President, along with an EXPANDED Democratic Congressional majority…the undocumented immigrants will be LEGALIZED anyway…and then they won’t be …”illegal”!
And NO…I will NOT be casting my ballot for Ron Paul!
David Smeriglio
September 26th, 2007 at 1:16 pm
We need to call the Senate right away to put a stop to this Dream Act Amnesty. Even if you feel they should get Amnesty, this bill will further the war and hurt Latinos. Latino children should not be forced into war like this.
It is clear that the Pentagon is getting desperate for new recruits now that over 60% of Americans are unhappy with the war.
If we allow Dream Act to pass, the Pentagon can then have an endless supply of new recruits from around the world that will be promised rewards in America if they keep this war going for them.
Tanya Lamb
September 26th, 2007 at 1:29 pm
These Senators are so desperate to keep this war going that they are willing to con innocent illegal alien children into their agenda by trying to attach the Dream Act onto the Defense Bill. Everyone should be calling these Senators NOW and protest this action. STOP THE DREAM ACT! STOP THIS SENSELESS WAR!
NoAmmo
September 26th, 2007 at 1:45 pm
Is amnesty for illegal immigrants a bad thing? Probably not. But what is bad is the military servitude option of the DREAM Act and this should not be a part of this amendment! The War Mongers in DC are trying to keep the war going by forcing these immigrants into the military. I feel these people would be nothing more than cannon fodder for the wars in the Middle East. We have to put a stop to this. I cannot stand it when the war recruiters pull this stuff.
I can’t call for all of us that are opposed to stuffing the army’s ranks full of new soldiers. Let’s all get on the phones to our Senators now to tell them we are against the DREAM Act because of this military servitude push to fuel the Iraq War.
Help me out on this one. This DREAM Act is ridiculous and will only continue the war.
NoAmmo
September 26th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
I forgot to add. Please call now, right away to your Senators or any and all Senators to stop this DREAM Act. Time is short because the Senate will vote on it this week.
Vassili
November 1st, 2007 at 5:34 pm
My personal story allows to reflect on this even more. I’ve spent 13 years in the US, 100% legally, on H1 visa, twice applied to get LPR (”green card”), twice paid attorney’s fees of over $5000. First time it was rejected with an insulting languare (me having M.S. from USSR and another M.S. from US etc. etc. working all my life in my professional field was called “labour”), and 2nd time it just disappeared – i.e. when calling and asking about my case number I was told – “no such case”. And of course you can’t get any statement like that on paper. So I figured the hint and went home, to become 1st class human being and citizen.
And was I infuriated to find out that had I just stayed for 10 years in the US illegally (less then I stayed legally) I would be granted a residence. Or maybe not – since I’m Russian, and Russian’s are choice enimies of the US state, whereas Mexicans are cool. And US law works according to “might makes right” principle anyways.
So, I’m not surprised by this variation on “illegal is American” theme. Well – criminals would be natural next choice for US Army.
Why not draft? Oh, the cause of this War in unholy… I see..
Graeme Lukey
November 2nd, 2007 at 2:57 pm
Dear ‘Jaguar Paw’,
Couldn’t agree more with your point about coercian of hapless immigrants into an illegal war.
Unfortunately, as an Anglo-Irishman, I must take issue with you rather ridiculous point about the Great Irish Famine having been engineered by the Engish.
While the British Empire (Not the English – who often barely comprised half the army or command)was guilty of many things they did not have some nineteenth century version of Monsanto on their side. Offensive as it may be to the PC brigade and the historical revisionists, the Famine was caused by over-population of poor marginal farmland, and over-reliance on the production of the potato as a mono-crop – as planted by the Irish themselves.
Try to stick to the truth, as taking historical liberties only weakens your argument.
Yours
Graeme
Steve
November 3rd, 2007 at 6:40 am
Recruiting foreigners who do not speak English may result in the tactics used during the American Revolution when the army had to deal with the problem of iliteracy in the enlisted ranks. The solution was to put hay in one shoe and straw in the other to enable the troops to drill successfully. However to do this under present condition would mean translating this into dozens of languages thus necessitating the establishment of bi-lingual programs similar to those now being used in the schools of our major cities.
Steve
November 4th, 2007 at 6:29 pm
Sad to say I had many unpleasant experiences while wearing an enlisted man’s uniform. One fellow asked me if I joined up because I was wanted by the police? Of course hiding in the armed forces would be the last option for a felon. While conscription was on at the time the forces did not recruit anyone with a criminal record. But most enlisted personnel have often experienced disdain from civiilians. Perhaps this a major reason that many who supprt wars make sure they never wear an American uniform. steve, WW2
Joe Schembrie
November 5th, 2007 at 4:38 pm
Since illegal immigrants don’t incur the same taxes and employment liabilities as US citizens, they price American kids out of the labor market. That’s forced a lot of American kids to join the military despite misgivings. Now the kids are seeing that opportunity close, too.
If you think of America in terms of state power, then Bush is indeed a great patriot. If you think of America in terms of citizens, then there has never been a greater traitor.
Timmy Ramone
November 5th, 2007 at 7:26 pm
Graeme,
And why were the Irish forced to rely on genetically weak potatoes grown on poor, marginal farmland in the first place? The Brits may not have engineered the potato famine, but they certainly exploited every aspect of that deadly plague, much to the pain and suffering of the Irish people.
In many ways, the British response to the Great Hunger was similar the Republicans’ response to the destruction of New Orleans by Hurrican Katrina, summed up nicely by Rep. Richard Baker (R. LA): “We finally cleaned up public housing in New Orleans. We couldn’t do it, but God did.”
Beyond that, I agree with Jaguar Paw: NO MORE WAR, DAMMIT!
Vassili
November 6th, 2007 at 4:29 pm
Do I have to write this from Russia to tell you that you are wrong? State that abuses citizens and people of the world at large does not get stronger or live long. For all propaganda you may have heard about Russia and USSR it did not took more then 10 years to disintegrate after the State had done something that most people hated: the international aggression of Afgan War. Nazy Germany did not live much longer then 10 years.
Have you ever thought why Putin have not opposed the US aggression on Iraq? Keep in mind that Russia HAS the capability to say to the US – “You just SHALL not do that, or else…”.
I had awfull sinking feeling – on behalf of the US, I lived there at that time, when Iraq war started. I thought – “Well – one superpower collapse is too much for me in one lifetime”.
But let me encourage you – no matter what they say – life is better in Russia then it was in USSR. So, after “perestrojka” and “perestrelka (shooting round)” there is peace and happiness. 10-15 years. Retruning to original Constitution. Repealing income tax. Immigration into the US would slow down. Weak dollar would allow domestic manufacturing of goods. Not being a home country to World domination/Trocksist team is a big plus. Reducing insance military spending alone can make every US citizen rich. Since US still keeps nuclear weapons no real thread to secutiry exists. Bush with his team will be ousted – so that *main threat* will go away.
Now – the longer someone avoids the reality – the harder is the inevitable crash into it.
Sarah Palin
November 19th, 2008 at 5:58 pm
Why NOT pass the DREAM Act?
Why NOT share the opportunity to be happy and be recognized as an American, if you adapt to the Anerican culture?