Will The Real Terrorists Please Stand Up
While not entirely surprising, over the weekend, the Iranian parliament “voted to designate the United States’ Central Intelligence Agency and the U.S. Army as terrorist organizations.”
In part they claim that the clandestine unconventional warfare tactics that the CIA and Special Forces use to infiltrate and subjugate areas such as Iraq and Afghanistan is tantamount to terrorism. In addition, they would like the UN to “intervene in the global problem of U.S. prisons in Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib and secret jails in other countries.”
As a result, the popular cliche “one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter” will undoubtedly be thrown into the echo chamber over the next several weeks. However is this not merely another case of the pot calling the kettle black?
The initiation of force is arguably unjustifiable by any organizaiton, whether it is the nation-state or religious cult. Thus, the bigger issue is that war itself is terrorism with a bigger budget.
And as Robert Higgs has noted with the ratchet effect, war is the health of the state (as observed by Randolph Bourne) – therefore the only victors in future invasions, “police actions,” or terroristic acts are members of the political class and military-industrial complex (i.e., the state).
Alex Temal
September 30th, 2007 at 2:12 am
Agreed.
JoJO
September 30th, 2007 at 5:06 am
Don’t miss this article on today’s Antiwar-above-answers WHOM :-(
“Big Coffers and Rising Voice at Conservative Group”
Mark Williams
September 30th, 2007 at 5:53 am
They’re right, of course.
ChrisBaker
September 30th, 2007 at 6:12 am
They should also add Blackwater to the list of terrorist groups.
M.D. Chattick Sr.
September 30th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
While we are becoming free with the term terrorism why not include every elected member of US government on down to the lowest employee within bureaucracy who supply the support of and owe allegiance to the Terrorist Organization?
Can’t hae it both ways and the excuse of I am just doing my job as we know is weak, very weak a defense.
If one says they cannot aford to quit then they are but a mercenary for the terrorist.
Tim R.
September 30th, 2007 at 12:43 pm
It is sad and shocking that some think of the United States of America as a “terrorist” organization. Sure, we have had our share of mistakes, we have done things that were morally wrong and inexcusable, and we should own up to that and not repeat those mistakes. But I would venture to say that the USA has been one of the greatest vehicles in the promotion of human liberty the world has ever known.
Who stopped the Nazism and fascism? Who helped to tear down the Iron Curtain of communism? The United States of America, thats who! To compare a nation such as ours to the disgusting thugs in Iran who do not have free elections, allow men to “marry” 9 year old girls and have sex with them, kill gay people, stone people to death for adultury and the list goes on, is an unfair comparison to say the least. If you really think “one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter” you are a moral relativist and have a warped sense of right and wrong.
QM
September 30th, 2007 at 1:13 pm
Who stopped the Nazism and fascism?
The Soviet Union, that’s who. Once Stalingrad fell it was curtains for Hitler.
Who helped to tear down the Iron Curtain of communism?
Though not intentionally, it was the Soviet Union again.
….To compare a nation such as ours to the disgusting thugs in Iran who do not have free elections, allow men to “marry” 9 year old girls and have sex with them, kill gay people, stone people to death for adultury and the list goes on, is an unfair comparison to say the least.
While I don’t know about the marriage issue I can tell you you are mistaken with regard to homosexuality and adultery. Justin had a blog entry on takimag describing how homosexuality is viewed. And you can google “Tehran+300,000+prostitutes” to find that even the sex industry is legitimized by the clerics running Iran, although they do carve out a chunk of the revenue for themselves. Perhaps you were thinking of our ally Saudia Arabia when you wrote this, as all these accusations are true of wahabbi/salafist Saudia Arabia, but not so of Iran.
In closing please allow me to ask one question of you:
Who is OBL & Al Qaeda’s greatest enemy?
Answer: Iran, another country aafter Saddam’s Iraq where Al Qaeda had no safe harbor.
If you really think “one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter” you are a moral relativist and have a warped sense of right and wrong.
masmanz
September 30th, 2007 at 4:03 pm
The problem with this moral relativism is that while Iran calling CIA and US Military a terrorist organization has no practical impact, the US senate calling Iran’s military a terrorist organization hands over the necessary tool to Bush administration to further its war agenda.
In the list of great work done by us, Tim R forgot to mention the support we provided to Afghanistan’s ‘freedom fighters’ to oust the Soviet occupiers and defeat their local collaborators. In the list of Iranian’s crime he can also add that they did not come to the help of Afghan Mujahedeen, when they were fighting against the Soviets.
Tim R.
September 30th, 2007 at 9:26 pm
Yes, we supported the Muslim fanatics in Afghanistan at the time. Why? Because we thought the Soviet Union was the greater threat. Clearly, we were wrong and do you know why? No matter how many thousands of nuclear missiles the Soviets had pointing at us, when it came down to it the Soviets were rational actors who did not want to kill themselves or destroy the world in a nuclear holocaust. But the same can’t be said about the Muslim fanatics.
In fact, by their own words the Islamic Fascists tell us that they WANT to die in the cause of Jihad so they can go and get their 72 virgins. In other words, the Muslim fanatics are a much greater threat than the Soviets were because you could reason and talk to the Soviets and the Soviets did not want to commit suicide. It is just the opposite with the Muslim fanatics. One lone Muslim fanatic with just ONE nuclear bomb is more dangerous than the Soviets ever were with even 10,000 nuclear bombs. I hope people wake up to this danger before it is too late.
Richard Steven Hack
October 1st, 2007 at 2:10 am
The original “terrorists” – the People’s Will in Russia – invented terrorism as a means of attacking THE STATE – not civilians. It was the state and religious and political fanatics who turned to attacking civilians and called it “terrorism”.
Terrorism is THE most effective form of warfare and it should be used always and forever against the state – not ordinary people.
The state IS organized crime. The state IS an attempt to “monopolize coercion.” And there is no such thing as a non-coercive monopoly. And that is precisely why the state will always be imperialistic and fascist. There is no such thing as “limited government”.
Smash the state!
goldhorder
October 1st, 2007 at 6:35 am
The 1 billion muslims of the world are all just crazy lunatics who want to strap bombs to themselves and blow up Christians. Since this is unquestionably true…We as God fearing Christians must engage in a systematic campaign to wipe all Muslims off the face of the earth. So we can live in peace and not have to be scared of Muslims blowing us up. After all…everybody knows that the 6th commandment says thou shalt not kill…unless it is scary brown skinned Muslim people…than it is OK so just blast away. Those damn Arab Muslims certainly have no reason to be mad at us. It is not like we have tried to dominate them since the 70s or anything. We also know from the hundreds of years we have had all these probelms with the Arabs. Just look at all the conflict we have had with Arabs before Israel carved out a country. It was just war after war before that. No wonder we think they are all death crazed lunatics. Sheesh!!
President Carter: “An attempt by an outside force to gain control of the Persian Gulf region will be regarded as an assault on the vital interests of the United States of America, and such an assault will be repelled by any means necessary, including military force.” This new policy, known as the Carter doctrine, he explained was necessitated by the “overwhelming dependence of Western nations on vital oil supplies from the Middle East.”
In 1975 in Harpers, then-secretary of state Henry Kissinger authored under a pseudonym an article, “Seizing Arab Oil.” Blissfully unaware that the author was his boss, the highly respected career ambassador to Saudi Arabia, James Akins, committed the mother of all faux pas when he told a TV audience that whoever wrote that article had to be a “madman.” Akins was right; he was also fired.
Just before the March 2003 attack, Chas Freeman, U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia for President George H.W. Bush, explained that the new policy was to maintain a lock on the world’s energy lifeline and be able to deny access to global competitors. Freeman said the new Bush administration “believes you have to control resources in order to have access to them” and that, with the end of the Cold War, the U.S. is uniquely able to shape global events – and would be remiss if it did not do so.
Tim R.
October 1st, 2007 at 2:40 pm
Yes, thank you for reminding us, goldhorder, that the Muslim fanatics have been at war long before Israel or the United States even existed. If you read up on history, you will see that between appoximatly 622 and 732 the muslim fanatics spread thier violent and blood thirsty religion throughout much of the world, and they spread it with the power of the sword. They got all the way into Spain and even what is modern day France until they were finally stopped by a great hero, Charles Martel.
Read history and wise up already! Islam is not a peaceful religion and Muslims have been terrorizing this world long before our great grandparents were ever born.
goldhorder
October 2nd, 2007 at 4:29 am
Yes…they are not peaceful like Western Christians…It is not like we ever set the world on fire with two world wars causing by leaps and bound the most human bloodshed and misery throughout human history. None of that matters though of course…because we are pure and good. And they are evil and bad. It is the other we must get. Especially if they are brown skinned and don’t look like me and don’t call themselves Christians.
azn Eminem
October 2nd, 2007 at 6:29 am
Will the real terrorist please stand up, please stand up
Will the real terrorist please stand up, please stand up
(to be continue)
-Slim Azn Shaddy
joe
October 2nd, 2007 at 6:30 am
Siiick
Tim R.
October 3rd, 2007 at 9:46 pm
Such nonsense goldhorder. Tell me, please, just how have we “dominated” the muslims in the persian gulf since the 1970’s? What countries did we invade? Which oil fields did we sieze? What mosques did we bomb?
And what have the radical Muslims done since the 1970’s?
1974: Muslims blow up TWA Flight 841, killing 88
1979: Muslims sieze our embassy in Tehran, kidnap 52 American Citizens and hold them hostate for 444 days.\
1983: Muslims bomb US Embassy in Beirut, killing 63
1983: Muslims bomb United States Marine Barracks in Beirut, killing 241.
1985: Muslims hijack a TWA flight, kill an Amerian Navy Serviceman on board, and hold 145 passengers hostage for 17 days
1985: Muslims hijack the Achille Lauro cruise ship, 700 held hostage and one American Citizen, an elderly, wheel-chair bound man is murdered and pushed over board.
1988: Muslims blow up Pan Am 103 over Scotland killing all 259 on board.
1993: Muslims bomb the World Trade Center in New York, 6 killed, 1,000 injured
1996: Muslims bomb Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia, 19 US military serviceman killed.
1997: Muslim opens fire at the Empire State Building in New York, killing one, wounding several
1998: Muslims bomb US Embassy in Kenya and Tanzania
2000: Muslims bomb the USS Cole, killing 17 sailors
September 11th 2001: A date that speaks for itself
2002: Muslims kidnap and kill Daniel Pearl in Pakistan
2002: Muslim car bomb kills over 200 in Bali, Indonesia
2004: Muslims bomb the subways in Madrid, Spain
2005: Muslims bomb the subways in London, killing 52.
This list is IN NO WAY EXHAUSTIVE. I did not list many other attacks because it would take all day, you could write a book on it.
But I ask you goldhorder, please give me a similar list of deliberate attacks by the United States against Muslims. Please be specific, with dates and numbers killed.
Or if you can’t give me such a list, keep quiet and stop spouting rubbish!
Tim R.
October 4th, 2007 at 7:56 am
Goldhorder, if you study history you would know that the the first and second world wars were not fought over religion. There were many other causes like nationalism, imperialism, etc, but it was certainly not a holy war of Christians against Muslims. In fact the Muslims in Palestine supported Hitler and wanted to help him kill Jews. What history books, if any, have you read to support your position? Japan was a major player in WWII and they are not even a Christian nation.
Also, you very nicely dodged my question by bringing up the two world wars, I asked you for a specific list of attacks by the United States against Muslims in the Persian Gulf since the 1970’s. You dodged the question because you can’t come up with such a list and you know it.
goldhorder
October 4th, 2007 at 10:27 am
This list is by no means exhaustive
Iran 1953
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax
300 dead in overthrow…overthrow democratically elected leader…power to violent dictator
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAVAK
Lebanon 1958
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon_crisis_of_1958
http://www.fpif.org/briefs/vol5/v5n02leb.html
Puts down rebelion leaves unpopular dictator in charge
LEBANON l982-84 Naval, bombing, troops Marines expel PLO and back Phalangists, Navy bombs and shells Muslim positions.
Heeding the advice of then-national security adviser Robert McFarlane, President Ronald Reagan authorized the USS New Jersey to fire long-distance shells into Muslim villages in the Bekaa Valley, killing civilians and convincing Shiite militants that the United States had joined the conflict.
On Oct. 23, 1983, Shiite militants struck back, sending a suicide truck bomber through U.S. security positions and demolishing the high-rise Marine barracks. “When the shells started falling on the Shiites, they assumed the American ‘referee’ had taken sides,” Gen. Colin Powell wrote about the incident in his memoirs, My American Journey.
Unknown number killed…we don’t do body counts very well for foreigners so I am at a disadvatage here.
In 1985, CIA director Casey targeted Hezbollah leader Sheikh Fadlallah in an operation that included hiring operatives who detonated a car bomb outside the Beirut apartment building where Fadlallah lived.
As described by Bob Woodward in Veil, “the car exploded, killing 80 people and wounding 200, leaving devastation, fires and collapsed buildings. Anyone who had happened to be in the immediate neighborhood was killed, hurt or terrorized, but Fadlallah escaped without injury. His followers strung a huge ‘Made in the USA’ banner in front of a building that had been blown out.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
290 killed
“I will never apologize for the United States of America—I don’t care what the facts are” George HW Bush
Israel’s 1982 invasion of Lebanon – directed by then-Defense Minister Ariel Sharon – led to the massacre of some 1,800 Palestinian civilians in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in Lebanon.
Lebanon Israel 2006 war. In response to two captured soldiers more than 1000 lebanese civilians killed in bombing. Infrastructure greatly damaged.
IRAQ 1963 Command operation CIA organizes coup that killed president, brings Ba’ath Party to power, and Saddam Hussein back from exile to be head of the secret service.
5000 killed—CIA gave list of the Communist sympathizers to be executed upon a return to power
Gulf War I and subsequent bombing campaings.
In January 1991, the U.S..and its allies unleashed a massive bombing assault against Iraqi government and military targets, in an intensity beyond the raids of World War II and Vietnam. Over 200,000 Iraqis were killed, including many civilians who died in their villages, neighborhoods, and bomb shelters. The U.S. continued economic sanctions that denied health and energy to Iraqi civilians, who died by the hundreds of thousands, according to United Nations agencies. The U.S. also instituted “no-fly zones” and virtually continuous bombing raids, yet Saddam was politically bolstered as he was militarily weakened.
Lesley Stahl on CBS’s 60 Minutes. Asked by Stahl with regards to effect of sanctions against Iraq: “We have heard that half a million children have died. I mean, that’s more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?”. Albright replied: “I think this is a very hard choice, but the price — we think the price is worth it.”
I am just picking the obvious ones…I could go on like this for days!!!
I’m not trying to say all Muslims are good and all Christians are evil Tim. ALL MEN ARE SINNERS. Your blind support for the US and disregarding of the evil we do has resulted in you supporting the immoral foreign policies of our country.
Probably one of the most clear cases that the terrorists are motivated by a lust for revenge is Ramzi Yousef at his sentencing hearing. His words are very direct and very clear. He is clearly speaking the truth here. The dear departed Wanniski has some very insightful comments to add. Notice the date of the memo he sent Helms. He predicts the second terrorist attack!
http://www.wanniski.com/showarticle.asp?articleid=1619
You have not educated yourself. You are determined to defend the US at any cost and ignore all contrary evidence. I’m sure there is nothing I can do to persuade you otherwise.
All men are sinners
Men who recognize this fact and learn to check their emotions and practice self control are less inclined to do evil in this world. Are the Muslims about to launch a mass invasion of the US? They don’t have the means. Don’t act like such a frightened child. Buy a gun to defend your home. Encourage an American policy that promotes a live and let live attitude…rather than a divide, conquer, and exploit strategy. Maybe our economy suffers a bit but the Americans need to learn self sufficiency again anyways.
Tim R.
October 4th, 2007 at 11:37 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
290 killed
“I will never apologize for the United States of America—I don’t care what the facts are” George HW Bush
What proof do you have that that was not anything more than a tragic accident?
Tim R.
October 4th, 2007 at 11:45 pm
Goldhorder you listed the following:
Israel’s 1982 invasion of Lebanon – directed by then-Defense Minister Ariel Sharon – led to the massacre of some 1,800 Palestinian civilians in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in Lebanon.
Lebanon Israel 2006 war. In response to two captured soldiers more than 1000 lebanese civilians killed in bombing. Infrastructure greatly damaged.
Perhaps you did not understand the question, I asked for specific examples of actions directly committed by the United States of America against Muslims. Your above mentioned examples are of actions by Israel. Last time I check Israel was a separate nation, you might want to believe otherwise I know.
And PS: Why did Israel invade Lebannon in 1982? Maybe because Hezbollah was shelling the hell out of Northern Israel’s towns? I don’t know about you but I have been to Kiryat Shemona, right on the border and I’ve talked with the people and I know what they went through from shelling and incursions by Hezzbolah.
And in 2006? Maybe because even AFTER Israel pulled out completly, as certified by the UN,the Islamic Nazi’s of Hezbollah kidnapped three Isreali soldiers and continuted to harass and threaten northern isreali towns?
goldhorder
October 5th, 2007 at 4:17 am
What is our current round of support to Israel? $30 billion dollars I believe? If we hadn’t given them our tanks and fighter jets…Israel woulnd’t exist. We are Israel. They wouldn’t exist without us.
LOL…you need to study your history you fool. The Israeli army entered Lebanon in 1982 to take land and force out the PLO (A nationalistic secualar group made up of Sunni Muslims…not religious nuts…just wanting their land back). Hezzbolah did not exist as an organization in 1982. Hezzbolah was created by the Israeli invasion. You are a moron. You don’t know anything but Muslim people bad…Christian peopel good. The Local population in Southern Lebanon was made up of Shia Muslims. They cheered the Israeli invasion at first because they were happy to get the PLO out…having poor, hungry, armed refugees living among them was a bit of a burden they didn’t want to put up with. Curfews…roadblocks…beatings…the Shia were treated as bad as the Palestinians and quickly became Israelis newest enemy. That is when Hezzbolah was formed. They didn’t exist before 1982!!! Get a freakin clue
LOL…tragic accident? Why wouldn’t Bush Sr. apologize? You make excuses for our crimes…how do you think Muslims view this? Did you even bother to read the Yousef statement? Do you think he was just lying about what motivated him? If religious hatred was his real motiviation than why would he lie? Why woulnd’t he just say I hate you because you are Christian infidels?
You have blinders on. You have decided Americans are perfect God like creatures and Muslims are evil devil like creatures. You complain about Muslim terrorits killing people while ignoring our more efficient industrialized killings of Muslim peoples.
Tim R.
October 5th, 2007 at 5:00 pm
And why should we not support Israel? You just hate Israel, just admit it. Israel is a tiny little country, comparable to the size of New Jersey as compared to the rest of the United States. She has a population of about 5 million Jews, surrounded by over 200 muslims who want to destroy her. How do we know they want to destroy her? Because everyone from Gamel Abdel Nasser to Ahmadinijhad, the PLO’s original charter, etc, all tell us so.
Yes, your right, if not for the United States, the violent bloodthirsty arabs would probably have a much easier time of destroying her,which is probably just what you want. You disgust me.
Israel is far from perfect and should have treated the muslims on the west bank and gaza much better but compared to the vile and dangerous regimes in the area they are the most civilized by far.
I don’t think all Muslims are bad, those are you words. But the modern and moderate muslims do need to stand up and reform their religion. And if Bush Senior would not apologize for our downing of the aircraft then he was wrong and I am the first to admit that.
But you sir, are blinded by your hatred of Israel, and quite possibly by your hatred of the United States. If you like the Muslims so much why don’t you try living in Saudi Arabia or Yemen or Iran for a few years?
Colonel_Khadafis_Fried_Chadian
October 8th, 2007 at 9:40 am
Yes tahnks for reminding us Tim that they never attacked America!
Colonel_Khadafis_Fried_Chadian
October 8th, 2007 at 9:41 am
He said: “Just look at all the conflict we have had with Arabs before Israel carved out a country.”
Just quit it will you?
Colonel_Khadafis_Fried_Chadian
October 8th, 2007 at 9:49 am
Israel is about as indepedent from the USA as Ukraine was from the Soviet Union. You might want to believe otherwise I know.
And PS: Why did Hizbollah shell Northern Israeli towns? Maybe because Israel had formally intervened in Lebanon as early as 1978?
And in 2006? Maybe because after Israel pulled out foramlly they stil contiuned (and continues) to occupy a part of Southern Lebanon!
Colonel_Khadafis_Fried_Chadian
October 8th, 2007 at 9:51 am
Goldhorders previous comment included actual FACTS. Yours is just filled with bleeding heart rethoric. Just GTFO. You have nothing to contribute to these forums.