‹ Norman Mailer: Against the Empire •
In a report in today’s Daily Mail, A Chinese submarine surfaced in the middle of a recent Pacific naval exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk - a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board.
By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.
According to senior NATO officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy. One NATO figure said the effect was “as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik” – a reference to the Soviet Union’s first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.
The lone Chinese vessel slipped past at least a dozen other American warships which were supposed to protect the carrier from hostile aircraft or submarines.
The Chinese fleet includes at least two nuclear-missile launching subs. It is not known if the sub in question was one of these.
Commodore Stephen Saunders, editor of Jane’s Fighting Ships, and a former Royal Navy anti-submarine specialist, said the U.S. had paid relatively little attention to this form of warfare since the end of the Cold War. He said: “It was certainly a wake-up call for the Americans.
“It would tie in with what we see the Chinese trying to do, which appears to be to deter the Americans from interfering or operating in their backyard, particularly in relation to Taiwan.”
Does the term “nuclear missile launching subs” refer to ballistic missiles or perhaps also to the nuclear capable supersonic cruise missiles the Chinese possess?
The Chinese are a rising threat to our national security. Unfortunatly, we are not able to deal with it properly since the threat from the Islamic radicals is more imminent and we must first devote our resources to contain the spread of Islamic Fascists. However, make no mistake about it, the Chinese are a threat.
They have almost no respect for the most basic human rights. Freedom of speech and assembly is unheard of. A website like this would be censored in China. The government also actively persecutes the Tibeten people. The Tibetens are peaceful people who are not a threat to China yet the Chinese are enagaged in what can be called “ethnic cleansing” at the very least. As for working conditions, workers in China have very few protections. In America we have the Occupational Safety and Health Act and laws to protect workers, in China it is basically sweatshop labor under brutal conditions ( thanks Wal-Mart, you are a big help for that market!)
They are also vastly increasing their military spending and updating their technology. They are a threat to Taiwan, a peaceful and democratic nation and the only nation refused entry into the United Nations. And what has the United States done? Well, you would think we would want to stand up to them right? Tell them they had better put a stop to their human rights violations or there will be economic and diplomatic conseqeunces at the very least, right? In 1992, Bill Clinton lambastes former President George H. W. Bush for “coddling tyrants in Beijing” and when he gets into office he proceeds to do the same thing. In fact in the late 1990’s Clinton and Congress vote to give China “Most favored Nation” trading status on a permanent basis.
It is time for both Republicans and Democrats to stand up to the Chinese. We are the worlds last remainding super power. The Chinese would like to change that. Lets see to it that they don’t!
Hey Tim, is there any country out there not licking America’s boots that you don’t consider a threat to us? China’s military spending isn’t even crumbs off the Pentagon’s table, for pete’s sake. “Oh boy, there’s someone out there with a submarine! Sound the alarm and prime the missiles–we gotta protect the homeland and cream everyone else!”
Rothbard was right. We should just declare war on the earth and be done with it. And given America’s incessant warmongering, a little counterbalance might be a good thing.
No, I don’t want to declare war on the Earth. There are plenty of countries out there I have a lot of respect for. I spent time in Australia and can tell you they are some of the nicest and most civilized people you’ll ever meet. I love the British. The French are great (especially since Sarkozy!). Irish and Canadians are great too.
China is very nice, too, Tim. The biggest danger to the US is Bush type fanaticism.
Lester Ness
We have seen the Chinese enemy, and they are us. If the Chinese cut off trade with us and pull their dollars out of our economy and put it all into Euros, you, Tim, are not only going to be walking around shoeless, but also probably sleeping under a bridge.
Good luck trying to connect your computer to make your feel-tough comments.
Tim, your hackneyed GOP “but what about Clinton” claptrap is about as convincing as a dirty sponge trying to clean a counter. In case you haven’t noticed, this submarine incident occurred in the second term of your hero, Dubya, after the military has been fortified with hundreds of billions of dollars. Blaming Clinton for the failures of the military just won’t cut it.
Regarding the Chinese, they have as much a right to a Navy as the United States does. The United States does not own the world and outer space, as much as people like yourself might think to the contrary. Your hero’s incessant, arrogant bullying won’t work with the Chinese or the Russians, and while they have been allowing Dubya to take as much rope as he thinks he needs to hang himself in ruinous adventures, they are also making sure that if the lunatic fringe decides to strike out against them, there will be a series of very nasty surprises waiting for the U.S. military.
And regarding your tinny parole to somehow keep the Chinese from eclipsing the United States, that’s an impossible objective for a nation that has mortgaged all of its potential to be a superpower. The American ponzi scheme of an economy will reveal your designs to be nothing more than militaristic, masturbatory fantasies.
L. Paulus, I agree that Bush has been way too cozy with the Chinese and its disgraceful. But in case you did not notice, it was Bill Cliton who was in office when we granted them permanent favored nation trading status. And it was Bill Clinton always rolling out the red carpet for Jiang Zemin and the rest of the Chinese thugs.
Tim,you sound like an ass,the way your bush makes enimies you soon will have the world at your door,the american way is ‘kill them all and let god sort it out’some thing you and bush would say,you are a hateful race of people,first the russians,the chinese now the muslums,who next.now the uas has power but as history goes for how long????THE END OF THE USA WILL COME IF IT DOES NOT CHANGES,the troops are not heroes as heroes do not kill kids and women like in afgan and iraq,more like whole sale murder buy you president
raceist is not cool
So, the persecution of Tibetans… this explains why China Telecom phone bills are in Chinese AND Tibetan?
Poor Tim,
Good Grace! How on Earth can someone be so thick??? You tell me…Your comment is the clumsiest, dumbest I have read in a very long time as well as totally uneducated!
Yo are a true specimen of the ”ugly American”!
Blue Nomad, I’m glad that you can refute my points with logic rather than ad hominom attacks.
I don’t have time to get into detail with yet another Tim R thread of absurdities, but this comment needs responding to.
“Blue Nomad, I’m glad that you can refute my points with logic rather than ad hominom attacks.”
I used a series of posts explaining in painstaking detail and logic my side of the issue. Your responses were a thorough degeneration into simplification, ignoring virtually every point I made. Your arguments across the board are at that level: you offer a simplistic contention that country “x” is a threat to us and “we” have to fight them. Any detailed explanation is met by you with a unsubstantiated contentions, avoidance of US provocations, and finally, a panicked plea for protection from the bad guys.
Swami, I actually rather enjoyed our discussions. I’m sorry if you feel my debating skills are not up to par. If there was something specific you feel I did not respond to please feel free to let me know. What specific points did I fail to respond to? Perhaps I am just a simple minded American. Yes, I see things in terms of right and wrong, good and evil. Iran is an evil regime based on their actions. They stir up and foment Islamic radicalism and terrorsim. China, although not as much of a direct threat, is an evil regime, based on its actions and lack of respect for basic humans rights like freedom of religion.
Call me simple, call me foolish, call me what you will. But any nation that does not respect basic freedoms, such as freeom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of religion and assembly, such a nation is, in my simplistic worldview, evil. I guess I’m old fashioned but I still believe in this quaint notion we call “freedom.”
This Chinese submarine surprise could be the start of a new form of cat-and-mouse game like we used to play with the Soviets. No big deal in and of itself, but very disturbing when considering how unnecessary the motivating factors are. We’re also seeing some of the differences between the two secretive and destructive administrations of Bush and Nixon. Nixon’s treatment of China while conducting the Vietnam War is full of remarkable nuance and shrewd political maneuvering, whether one agrees with his policies or not. Imagining this kind of delicate political dance from the likes of Bush would be hysterical were it not so depressing. Like it or not, China is shaping up to be the world’s second superpower, perhaps third, and they appear to be taking a far more intelligent approach than we are. No, China is nowhere near our military peer, your scaremongering notwithstanding. They’re too damned smart to waste such a huge percentage of their capitol on weapons that will not be used; they’re too busy building an economic powerhouse. Economy is going to play an even larger role in superpower status than before and apparently they know it. Establishing friendships via diplomacy works better to get what they want than establishing it with threats of war, coups, or withdrawals of free money. Also, this country refuses to learn the lessons of 4th generation warfare. We’re wasting a lot of money on expensive hardware that’s based on military philosophies that have been outdated for years. This submarine surprise also isn’t the only example of our navy learning its true place in this modern world:
“A lone South African submarine has left the NATO Maritime Group red faced when it “won” against a fleet of NATO and South African ships in an exercise. The exercise between NATO and South Africa took place off the Cape Coast.
The SAS Manthatisi was pursued using sonar and radar but successfully eluded and destroyed all “enemy” ships.”
Shall we test to see just who has Russia’s sunfire missiles ready to fire?
Once again you present us with the red herring of “freedom” being the motivating factor in your lust for blood, and the straw man of anyone who doesn’t agree with you must be against freedom. As much as you want to twist it, this is not an either/or proposition. Human rights have NOTHING to do with why we’re going to war with these nations. This I addressed in my posts, and this you ignored in your responses (among many, many other things). But apparently you still want to ignore the elephant in the room and focus on freedom and evil. For your information, there were people living and dying under evil tyrants, regimes, tribes, and groups of rulers under any other name you’d care to think of over 200 years ago when our founders decided we should leave them to their unsolvable mayhem. There will continue to be people living and dying under evil tyrants, regimes, tribes, and groups of rulers under any other name you’d care to think of over 200 years in the future. The difference for Americans is this: this state of inevitability can occur with or without the deaths of thousands of Americans and with or without the financial ruin of America. You’re taking your pick and I’m taking mine. They hate us because we’re there and it IS possible to empathize with them by virtue of how we look at people meddling in our affairs. Heck, not just our affairs: We established the Monroe Doctrine so they wouldn’t mess with our HEMISPHERE! We do worse than that to these people ALL THE TIME and people like you wonder why they hate us. Well, no, you don’t: you just take the word of an idiot that they hate us for our freedoms. I’m sorry, this black and white, good vs evil world you fantasize about does not exist.
As for Taiwan, another country you couldn’t give a rat’s ass about outside of it “supporting” your arguments: Taiwan is a part of China whether you like it or not. The minority’s fight for independence is not worth our time, blood, and money. A 2005 poll of those living in Taiwan found that 77% approved of cross-straits negotiations on the basis of One China, Two Interpretations. This may come as a shocking disclosure to you, but our presence there, in the Middle East, on Russia’s doorstep, and everywhere else on the globe is seen by others as being similar to the Soviet Union’s presence in Cuba in the early 60s. We’re on their backs; we’re in their faces; we’re provoking them; we’re interfering with them. We’re killing people by the millions, yet you deign to fret over ill-treatment of women and/or workers. Guess what? In China where these factory workers work in atrocious conditions, those very conditions are an improvement over their previously pointless rural lives. They CHOOSE to work in those conditions because they feel it’s still an improvement. Go ahead, take it away. They only allow one child and forcibly abort females? Is this America’s problem? Should we invade China tomorrow and guarantee the complete downfall of our nation? This is what you’re unwittingly (I’d really like to emphasize that word) advocating: the final downfall of the Great American Experiment.
I wouldn’t expect you to understand the complexities of Chinese civilization any more than I expected you to understand the complexities of the various sects of Islam and their interrelationships and animosities. Even if I expected you to even ATTEMPT to understand China’s recent history of millions slaughtered, I’d never expect you to realize that it might take some time before unfettered freedom visited those people. Even if I thought you’d recognize how long it took American blacks to gain their freedom from the Emancipation Proclamation to the civil rights turmoil of the 1960s, I wouldn’t expect you to give the same consideration for foreigners. If they can’t free their people, let’s kill them until they do.
As I said in one of my unanswered posts, America is hopelessly bogged down by loosely allied rabbles in two countries right now. I know you people thought Afghanistan was a great success, but as many of us already knew, it was only a matter of time before those people took their country back. Wasted time, blood, and money it was. Nevertheless, you think we can fight far greater powers — entire regions, with what troops, money, and support I don’t know.
Again: these countries repress millions. We KILL millions. Equal rights for women may make up for that difference in YOUR mind, but when it means equal rights to die by a bomb that’s “Made In The USA”, those people tend to get angry and some day strike back as best they can. Despite the fact that they will suffer with us, the rest of the world now hates us so much — in devastatingly sharp contrast to how they felt six years ago — that they’re ready to drop the dollar and watch this nation sink. No amount of lobbying from Washington will be able to pull us back: the world will have already decided that American hegemony is over. And we’ve already outsourced most of what this nation was built on. Wake up.
To see how easily the US finds other progressive nations such as China, a “threat” only serves to show how this country is imperial in attitude, culture, and its thinking. Every country that has a progressive model and strive to reduce or even eliminate subserviency on the US is a threat. The US operates its “Cop” role in all 4 corners of this world, spying on countries, propping up subservient govt’s, creating and financing wars, killing leaders, and supporting dictators who will serve the US agenda, and you have the nerve to say other countries are threats? Dude its the other way around!!!!
And please dont talk about human rights because the biggest abuser of human rights is the USA. No respect for the soverignity of other countries. Go into Iraq, kill millions of people, go to Afghanistan, kill hundreds of thousands opf people. And the other countless countries they have been and murdered people in the name of “Democracy”.
The hypocrisy of this Govt is beyond anything of my imagination.
You call China a “progressive nation?” Well, if you believe that I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn. Progressive?! Ever hear of something called forced abortions and a one child policy?
Hi Tim
By standing up to the Chinese do you mean reading them a piece of our mind perhaps, maybe really telling them off good and proper. I have a suggestion…look at the label inside your shirt, pants, coat whatever…no doubt you might find it was made in China. The money you paid for all those “made in China” items are now being loaned back to our government so George Bush will have the money to fund his wars. Have you told off the banker or mortgage company you deal with lately??? What was their response?
China is now one of America’s biggest bankers. If it so chose China could dump its dollars and collapse our economy in hours…something they’ve hinted at. It is too late to tell them off. Go to Wal-Mart and see where they are getting their merchandise. If you really want to make a statement “stop buying Chinese goods PERIOD!”
Here’s another point I only recently come to realize…Most consumer goods are almost all made somewhere else. We still build planes, some trains, some cars, some tractors, turbines etc. But very little consumer goods. The one exception is in the area of pornography. America probably makes the very best porn in the entire World…bar none.
Now that is a sad comment on our situation today.
Tim, you are my enemy; not the Chinese.
James Richardson is precisely right. We buy far too many goods from China. Yes, I am guilty of it too. I am indirectly responsible for the deplorable working conditions experienced by Chinese labor. We should all try to buy things made in the USA or if not, at least things made in countries that have laws mandating safe working conditions, child labor laws, minimum wage, etc. China certainly does not fit that bill! Wal-Mart is nothing more than a distribution center for Chinese goods. We need to also get serious with the Chinese when it comes to trade. Make no mistake, they want our markets and they need our markets, we should use that to our advantage.
“The Chinese are a rising threat to our national security….”
Blah, blah, blah. A bunch of yellow peril nonsense. I actually live in China, and don’t find the Chinese military too scary.
The best way for the US to be secure is to make friends with the rest of humanity, not turn everyone into enemies.
Lester Ness
Kunming
PR China
It’s truly unbelievable there are still people who believe that Islamic Fascists are the real threat to the world..the real threat is when people go to war based on lies and destroy countries, in this sense Islamic Fascists do not even scratch the surface… Do the numbers.. Do you not realize that countries create boogie men to control the masses.
Oh ok, so I guess when I got off the subway on 9/11/01 and watched the towers come down before my very eyes, I guess that was in my imagination. Or perhaps I am mistaken and none of the people who committed that act were of the Islamic faith? Thank you for correcting my erroneous beliefs.
China is a rising threat to our security. Unfortunately we are no able to deal with it because we wouldnt want to hurt all those delicious business agreements.
Your ignorant comments about Tibet and Taiwan only shows how little you know about the real issues here. And yet your arrogant tone about the human rights in China, and here in US reflected your narrow minded bias and prejudice.
It is the people and horrible thoughts like you and yours that we came to have leaders like Bsh and Chenny, and irresponsible actions like invading Iraq happened.
It is pity to see this great nation turned into what we see today.
Too many people and leaders like you and Bush is the real reason that our democracy is failing.
Oh, The Mighty God, help this nation. Please!
I am somewhat perplexed by all the hoopla from the pentagon about the potential military challenge that the People’s Republic of China could potentially pose to the United States. Not a month goes by without the Pentagon not heralding it either to the public or the congress. Yet we barely hear a whisper about the military capabilities of Russia, which are not potential but very actual. As a matter of fact, one of the most feared element of China’s rising naval might stems from their purchase of deadly effective Russian missile destroyers. Yet Russia itself is rarely mentioned with the same alarm by the US military brass, the only country with the nuclear might to pose an existential threat to the US.
Russia’s Kursk class nuclear submarines could potentially wipe out an entire aircraft carrier battle group in a matter of minutes. Some time ago, the same Kitty Hawk carrier was over-flown by Russian fighter bombers that practiced a mocked bombing pass while photographing the bewildered super-carrier deck crew caught totally by surprise. To make sure that the point was made, the Russian pilots then faxed these photos back to the Kitty Hawk with the annotation that had this been the real thing, they would now be at the bottom of the sea. The Pentagon first refused to comment, then admitted the incident while minimizing its importance almost as if it was a bad boy’s joke. So why the discrepancy in the treatment of these two incidents? Is there method in this madness?
I think the reason is apparent. Whereas the US can contemplate a possible confrontation with the People’s Republic over Taiwan in the China Sea and come out victorious while reminding the Chinese of their second rate status, such an adventure with Russia in the Caspian Basin or anywhere else can not be envisaged for now by the empire builders in charge of our country these days. And since it is in the nature of arrogant bullies to pounce on weaker perceived adversaries while handling with care, even ignoring a strong opponent, then the method becomes clear.
4,500 setting ducks ! Just like Pearl harbour,all in one spot.
Stanley, perhaps part of the demonization of China rather than Russia is because China is already our rival for the world’s oil reserves, getting most of the Gulf region’s production already, whereas Russia is not in competition because it has so much oil of its own that it can export a huge surplus.
That is only partly true Carol. During the Cold War, there was a tacit understanding between the US and USSR that the oil of the Middle East was ours whereas the reserves of the Caspian Basin was theirs. However after the dismantling of the Soviet Union and the demise of the Warsaw Pact, the US, NATO, and this new predatory capitalism we have seen emanating from the West tried to grab as much of those resources from Russia as they could.
Then came Putin who said that enough is enough and has began to reassert Russia’s might, reminding the Americans of the potent power of his nation. In his last speech he qualified these rapacious ambitions of the US as “political erotica”. That is why for the last two years, he has been demonized much more than any individual Chinese leader.
But as I point out, the new empire knows its limits. You don’t confront someone who can easily deter you. Whereas the Chinese, for the moment, can not protect the routes of their oil supplies. Again for the moment, they can not project their power globally. The oil of the Gulf enriches American oil companies as much as anyone else. The day it becomes convenient, the Chinese will simply be cut off. And it seems the Pentagon wants to keep it that way. The Chinese exploration contract with the Sudan for the oil of Darfur and US ambitions to replace them has a lot to do with the feigned concern for its inhabitants.
Tim R., it’s nice to see you leaving your haunts at the Weekly Standard and venturing out into the world. One question: the U.S. threatens China with “sanctions”, “economic and diplomatic consequenses at the very least” implying you’d keep military action on the table too, right? Then what?
Would that mean that we’d no longer let them finance our crushing national debt? Make them dump all of their dollar holdings?
Have you started shaving yet? Do your parents have you on a curfew? Are you even capable of reading? After such as scenario, the U.S. MIGHT…repeat MIGHT recover to the point of say, Chad, within the following century. Our economy would collapse overnight; electricity would become a luxury you couldn’t afford.
Do some basic research and stop making such idiotic statements.
very good post,a person who does his home work
Carter, first thank you for your witty and sarcastic insults. I can always use a laugh. Secondly, yes, we should stop allowing them to finance our debt, it is very troubling. But with that said, however, they still need us more than we need them. They need our markets. I mean Wal-Mart itself is their main distribution point for consumer goods. Yes,we need to rethink and revise our policies with them but I will still place my bets with the good ole USA.
thanks good post
However, China is also seeking to purchase oil right here in the Western Hemisphere from Venezuela, a major petroleum producing source for the US. We currently purchase about 60% of Venezuela’s output, which represents roughly 15% of all American oil imports. This article from 2005 speaks to the China-Venezuelan oil connection:
“U.S. mulls losing oil supplies from Venezuela”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6826081
As a brief aside, Brazil has just discovered an immense oil field off its coast. I expect we will be hearing a whole bunch of criticism about Brazil shortly if history is the judge.
CNOOC (China National Offshor Oil Corp.) has been making medium-to-large investments in this hemisphere for some years now. One of the reasons Hugo Chavez may be mediating in the Colombian civil war is that several Chinese oil firms would like a pipeline built to the Pacific, making it easier for Venezuela and Colombia to ship crude to Asia. Little is likely to come of this, however.
As for Brazil’s bout of offshore oil finds, Petrobras has been building itself up as an international major gaining experience dealing with difficult and deep offshore fields. In fact, Petrobras in one of the few firms skilled in that kind of work, and I think Brazil is now a net exporter. Chinese firms can add little in the way of technology or skills, but they can bring in capital. However, most Chinese investment is limited by the bout of populism currently striking South America’s major hydrocarbon states (Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador) and the fact that most of those resources cannot be transported easily or even at all. Bolivia is a net natgas producer, and is landlocked. The reason for investing there for Chinese firms would be the same for any investment — get a return on capital. Or, to make it simple, make money.
The government of the People’s Republic of China has, for some time now, dispensed aid and investment with few or no strings attached. (Unlike some governments we know.) This has created a great deal of goodwill for China around the world, both on the part of governments and, to some extent, popularly. No doubt being an alternative to American oil firms, which come with Washington attached, also clearly has its attractions.
I am reminded of an argument made by James Dale Davidson & Lord Rees-Mogg in one of their three books (The Great Reckoning, or Blood in the Streets, or The Sovereign Individual, can’t remember which, they’re all VERY good and inform on such a wide range of human action) about the impact of technology on geopolitical and meta-political activity. In a nutshell: Certain military (and otherwise) technologies favor either offense or defense. As all human activity has costs (both direct and opportunity costs), the way to analyze trends in geopolitics is to look at the technology available and tally up the costs of projecting power (offense) and deterring said projection. For example, the machine gun economizes for the defense, the tank, advances in artillery favor the offense. Currently, the US is spending enormous sums on stealth technology, which is most useful for offense. It’s also re-e-e-e-ealy expensive. Missile technology is far, far cheaper, and favors the defense. So. Look at the costs for aircraft carrier battle groups, stealth fighters & bombers and the costs for advancing these technologies, and then look at the costs of missiles & delivery systems and the rates of improvements (think Moore’s Law) for each. The answer should be obvious: Empires are obsolete.
You have to consider relative strength and relative cost, too.
B-52 with JDAM-equipped bombs are quite cheap to the US (relatively speaking; prerequisite is that the GPS satellite system be up) but the countermeasure — high-altitude anti-aircraft missiles — is unattainably expensive (relatively speaking) to underequipped Taliban guerilla.
Now, if you go up against a country that can clear the skies and the seas of enemy weapons platforms, then indeed, the case for “big ticket items” that help in ensuring a “bloodless victory” — and thus an easily sellable one — can no longer be made.
Still, we may be gearing up for new horrors. Advances in robotics and information processing might one day reduce your invading army to nothing more than a swarm of mass-produced mechanised wasps. How about that? Hopefully, development will take some time.
Poor Tim,
I live in China and I can assure you that Taiwan is not the little idealistic democratic country you described! Their president is a hysterical, little Napoleon (minus the brain) and is acting against the will of over half the Taiwanese population. His election was anything but democratic (a la Bush). Let me add that some of the worst companies operating in China are owned by Taiwanese and Hong Kong business men. They are among the worst when it comes to pollution, security and occupational hazards and will do anything to maximize profits and dividends!
I see happy Tibetans every day on the streets of numerous Chinese cities and they don’t strike me as being persecuted. Last but not least, they weren’t massacred like Native Americans (genocide) and can, like most Chinese now-a-day, practice their religion.
Ach, ach Tim…USA über Alles!!!
Huh?
While its certainly not mine to defend the view of Tim R. here or elsewhere, if we’re to understand your comment above as a defense in some way of the Chinese seizure of Tibet in 1950, can we assume that next you’ll be trying to justify the innumerable atrocities of Mao Tse Tsung?
And can you possibly be serious with such as:
“and can, like most Chinese now-a-day, practice their religion …”
Explain, please, how it is that Catholics in China are permitted to “practice their religion”? Among other things, the state will not even permit the Pope to appoint Chinese bishops to the consternation of Catholics throughout the world. On the whole, Communist China has utterly suppressed free expression of the Christian faith. And its hardly sufficient to defend the abomination that Chinese Communism is and always has been by embarking upon a critique of American history. Whatever the Unites States is or has become in recent times it can’t begin to compare to the inhuman monstrousity that Red China has been since its founding in 1949.
John Lowell
Oh for goodness sakes. China stopped being “Red” decades ago. It is a Chicago School capitalist paradise.
And who cares whether the Vatican gets to pick a bishop or whatever the daintily dressed assassins are called.
Oh for goodness sake. Sure it isn’t justabigot and not justiguy? Maybe its justaschlemeil.
Wish your comment were that benign, ace, but it wasn’t. Its just thoroughly noxious that you’d come to site like this where peace is valued and endorse the persecution of religion. Lose your way somehow, chief? Sounds like you belong in a daintily adorned bedsheet atop some mountain in Georgia.
John Lowell
Jebus, I didn’t expect the Spanish inquisition.
Do you actually have an argument or just oh so clever familiarities to use as some sort (in your mind) of attempted insult? One bunch of authoritarians influencing another bunch of authoritarians doesn’t get me excited.
If you want to carry on about your particular strand of authoritarian magic sky being worship as opposed to real stuff, choose someone else to practice on.
China is NOT a communist state. The Roman church is an authoritarian global political organization bent on the aquisition of power and money.
Oh, I don’t hold discussions with or present arguments to haters like you, chief, I simply identify them for what they are. Take your anti-Catholic poison back to the hole you crawled out of, and if you can, find time to take a bath. You’re carrying an odour.
Anti-catholic poison eh? Tee hee.
I am from India. I hold no brief for the Chinese. I think that their policies vis-a-vis Tibet,individual freedom and democracy are not good but actually detrimental for the future of true Chinese culture. The philosophy behind our practices today will affect the way our descendents behave tomorrow.For example,the war between the tribes in Rwanda has cultural links to Belgian colonialism.The USA today plays an Imperial role in the world because the British Empire was, and still is, trumpeted as a magnificent achievement.Empire building was seen as beautiful and civilising till Germany decided to Empire build in Europe.
Yet, I think we all have to accept that other people will be different from us. They have their own problems and perspectives and the only way that the US can help is by gentle persuasion. The example I like to quote is that of the Norwegians in Sri lanka. If the US has to play that role, it has to be high minded and enlightened and forget “self interest”. The only reason, then, for going to war would be if there is unequivocal evidence that there is a direct attack on a sovreign nation without - and this is important - without provocation.
America had no right to go to war against Al qieda in Afghanistan if it did not answer Bin Laden’s criticisms in 1996 when he asked America to leave the Sacred lands of Arabia. America would not, of course, do that because it has this prodigious appetite for oil.
So George, let me get this straight, Bin Laden was unhappy because of our military presence in Saudi Arabia and since we did not heed his advice and leave, he had the right to attack us and kill more Amerian civilians in one day than in any other day in the history of our country? That is the most preposterous thing I ever heard. You must be smoking something funny.
And by the way, the last time I checked, the reason the United States military came to Saudi Arabia in the first place was because Iraq invaded Kuwait in August of 1990 and had troops massed on the Saudi border and the Saudi government ASKED for our help. Well as for as I’m concerned the Saudi government foments Islamic radicalism and is a dispicable bunch of despots who we should have presented with a declaration of war on September 12th 2001, but that’s another story.
And by the way, George, what in the hell does your post have to do with the issue at hand anyway? I mean I thought we were talking about China?
Who says that OBL attacked the US? Bush? Where is his proof? ["It's super-secret!!"] Can it be independently verified? ["No, I told you it's super-secret and I can't tell you 'cause you're not in our club!"] Has an independent tribunal seen the records of the airlines involved? [no] Does this administration have a track record for lying? Has the US engaged in false flag operations before?
Heads up: The US has had bases in Saudi for about 25 years. Reagan spent $200 billion putting them in there. Remember the AWACS sale? That was just the big ticket item. You forget, the US military/industrial complex is the Saudi’s praetorian guard. The Saudi leadership is decadent, hypocritical & corrupt. THAT’S why OBL hates them (and us for supporting them).
“The USA today plays an Imperial role in the world because the British Empire was, and still is, trumpeted as a magnificent achievement.Empire building was seen as beautiful and civilising till Germany decided to Empire build in Europe.”
George, maybe the British Empire was once so considered in the past, it definitely is not right now. There has been a raft of very pointed literature recently discussing British atrocities, massacres, genocides and otherwise in Ireland, South Africa (perhaps 10% of the Boer population, mostly women and children, killed in the British concentration camps), mass murder of native peoples in the Americas and Oceania, and yes, in India, very brutal British policies. Mass murders and work/death camps little different from Bergenbelsen sprouting up in India to exploit and kill Indian workers en masse after the 1857 rebellion, perhaps 20% of Bengal’s population killed off by East India Company policies in the late 1700’s while this formerly rich area was ruined, tens of millions more people in India being killed in the next century in British India by a combination of malignant neglect and deliberate supplanting of foodstuff-growing fields. Then the Opium Wars, British RAF terror-bombing in Somalia and the Middle East (where Arthur Bomber Harris was first maligned), and so on.
The only way that today, one could consider the British Empire to have been a net positive, is through sheer ignorance. The historical consensus now is that it was a very murderous, exploitative, brutal, potentially genocidal and ruinous institution that caused tremendous damage, and far from in any way being a model of capitalism and democracy, it suppressed capitalistic and democratic movements in the colonized nations at every opportunity. Quite a few historians have been indicating that the Empire was a good deal worse than the Nazis in its total impact.
This is not a commentary on the UK now, IMHO Britain today is definitely a kind of model citizen in the world community, with a focus on environmentalism and human rights, despite blundering into the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, among other things. But there’s a lot of ugly history in the UK that hasn’t been fully acknowledged, unlike in other countries.
BTW, some historians who discuss the brutality of the British Empire and this growing historical consensus if you’re interested:
John Newsinger, Caroline Elkins, David Anderson, Amartya Sen, Mark Curtis and scores of others.
These are hard-hitting books with titles like Britain’s Gulag, Histories of the Hanged, Web of Deceit (Britain’s Real Role in the World) and so forth, and meticulously documented. The British Empire was not in any way benevolent or even unintentionally beneficial George, there’s a lot of dirty laundry that’s just now being aired in great detail.
I’ve just seen the report about the Russian jets overflying the Kitty Hawk.
What are these guys going to do when Iran send a thousand small boats loaded with anti-ship missiles at them?
Sink, that’s what.
Although as Colonel Sam Gardiner said, when you see our carriers being pulled OUT of the Gulf, THAT’S when the Iran war is going to start. Because the Navy knows they’re sitting ducks in the Straits or the Gulf.
And guys, they’re down to one carrier there now…They’ve pulled one out of the two that were there.
I think we’re getting close.
Richard, a thousand small Iranian boats with anti ship missiles? Hmmmm. That versus a US Navy aircraft carrier battle group? Well, if this were Las Vegas and I were a betting man I would still have to go with the aircraft carrier battle group!
Face reality guys,the Pres. is an Armegeddonite, the End of the World is his goal. China is not in the Bible at all.
Lester Ness
Kunming
China
What is “within viable range”? A nautical mile? 10?
Lester Ness
Kunming
China
Tim, I’m in China– no censorship of the Website here. Yes, the so-called Great Firewall can be annoying sometimes, above all a waste of time and a drain on productivity since you don’t get reliable access to sites. But most sites, even controversial ones are unblocking and there’s increasing leeway. There’s a lot more free expression here in China than you acknowledge, with or without clumsy attempts to shut it down (which usually don’t work).
The government for all its flaws, sees itself as trying to maintain some semblance of social harmony among a very large and vigorous population and with all due respect, they really do have a difficult challenge on their hands. While there are many corrupt officials as in any government, and indeed some problems with transparency and protection of intellectual property here– to my own surprise, I’ve tended to find Chinese officials to overall care a whole lot about being good public servants and doing a good job for the people they represent. They’re trying to strike a difficult balance here. As the country grows stronger and more confident, if anything the controls and the rule here seem to become more benign. Criticisms over bumbling policies are now more openly made– constructive criticisms that invite potential solutions in particular, are if anything increasingly welcomed.
Again, you have the balance between social harmony here in what is sometimes a fragile economic state, and the real need for transparency and forthright acknowledgment of flaws– without descending into the cynicism and fruitless negativism we often have in the USA or Britain especially. And again, there’s an actual respect for public service here, whereas in the USA, our politicians are increasingly selected on the basis of egotism and scratching their buddies’ backs. The trick in the balance is to select for dedicated leaders with an interest in public service while also allowing for decent citizen input, and not allowing any sort of electoral system to degenerate into the bought-and-sold ruling classes who increasingly dominate the US and Britain. It’s not perfect but there’s constant improvement, and even increasing citizen participation and input through numerous channels.
And honestly, the mainland Chinese themselves are among the friendliest people you’ll meet. They frequently speak German for business/scientific reasons, often also English, Spanish, French, they’re curious about the world, and overall quite welcoming to foreigners. Especially if you speak some Chinese yourself, you’re more than welcome.
And too often, people in US/UK obsess over the Taiwan issue and don’t really understand it. It’s a family feud here between two ethnically Chinese peoples with a complicated and interlinked history, not a stand-off between enemy nations as American think tanks often assume.
As China becomes more open, wealthy, confident and internationally respected, then the tensions with Taiwan also decrease since they come to mutually benefit each other, and also since increasing openness on both sides makes even the governmental differences less than before. (Even now, those differences are exaggerated– both Taiwan and Mainland China still share many basic aspects of civil law and administration that date all the way back to the German and Prussian civil systems that were imported all the way back during Bismarck’s tenure.)
What I foresee is that probably Taiwan and China will come to an accord where Taiwan is more-or-less in a kind of linked zone with China, Hong Kong, and some offshore islands the way different European countries are associated with each other. Again, the buzzword is mutual benefit– this sort of thing is a big win-win for both sides. And when this happens, and again as China again attains a respected global status, China’s confidence will help further reforms on things like intellectual property and banking transparency.
IOW, I frankly just don’t see long-term, any strong historically-based reason for the USA to regard China in any way as a massive threat. We’ll have another very strong nation and probably a bigger economy than us to deal with, Mandarin Chinese will become a critical language, but so what?
The European Union already is outclassing us in many of these departments, and is already a bigger economy, German and French are both important global standards esp German in highly professional fields– and so what? No big deal, we’ll deal with it just fine. A somewhat multipolar world may even be better as far as checks and balances are concerned.
Guys, I was actually a sailor on the Kitty Hawk, once upon a time, and this submarine thing was always happening in maneuvers with the Australians, et al. Even the year when we had an entire anti-submarine air wing aboard, the subs managed to sneak through. This was 30 years ago.
Make friends with China, don’t try to keep the military industrial complex going by inventing new cold wars every few years.
Definitely don’t go on killing sprees in places like Viet Nam, Nicaragua, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. It’ll destroy us in the long run (probably Bin Laden’s goal).
Lester Ness
“Tim, I’m in China– no censorship of the Website here.”
Are you a Chinese agent? Are you using a fake name? How can you say something that’s so obviously false?
“China is very nice, too, Tim. The biggest danger to the US is Bush type fanaticism.”
Well, if you visit ANY country, the average Joe Blow on the Street is always very nice. I’m sure the average German in Nazi Germany was very nice. It’s what goes on in the minds of the Chinese Communist Party leaders and the Red Army brass that is not so nice. No, Bush is an idiot but he does actually believe in democracy. The Chinese leaders most assuredly do not.
“So, the persecution of Tibetans… this explains why China Telecom phone bills are in Chinese AND Tibetan?”
Duhhh, if we invaded China and printed bills in both English and Chinese, does that somehow make the whole thing benign? The fact is that Tibet does not belong to China, historically, and the Chinese have taken over someone else’s territory merely because they could.
Let’s have no illusions here. The Chinese government IS an evil dictatorship that routinely violates human rights (orders of magnitude greater than what U.S. might have done). The Chinese dream is to displace the U.S. as the sole superpower. (Someone kindly pointed out that the European Union already exceeds the U.S., but seriously, it’s not a single political entity, just a loose collection of independent states). I’m not saying that we