US Navy Gets Chinese Surprise

In a report in today’s Daily Mail, A Chinese submarine surfaced in the middle of a recent Pacific naval exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk – a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board.

By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.

According to senior NATO officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy. One NATO figure said the effect was “as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik” – a reference to the Soviet Union’s first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.

The lone Chinese vessel slipped past at least a dozen other American warships which were supposed to protect the carrier from hostile aircraft or submarines.

The Chinese fleet includes at least two nuclear-missile launching subs. It is not known if the sub in question was one of these.

Commodore Stephen Saunders, editor of Jane’s Fighting Ships, and a former Royal Navy anti-submarine specialist, said the U.S. had paid relatively little attention to this form of warfare since the end of the Cold War. He said: “It was certainly a wake-up call for the Americans.

“It would tie in with what we see the Chinese trying to do, which appears to be to deter the Americans from interfering or operating in their backyard, particularly in relation to Taiwan.”

  • hp

    Does the term “nuclear missile launching subs” refer to ballistic missiles or perhaps also to the nuclear capable supersonic cruise missiles the Chinese possess?

  • Tim R.

    The Chinese are a rising threat to our national security. Unfortunatly, we are not able to deal with it properly since the threat from the Islamic radicals is more imminent and we must first devote our resources to contain the spread of Islamic Fascists. However, make no mistake about it, the Chinese are a threat.

    They have almost no respect for the most basic human rights. Freedom of speech and assembly is unheard of. A website like this would be censored in China. The government also actively persecutes the Tibeten people. The Tibetens are peaceful people who are not a threat to China yet the Chinese are enagaged in what can be called “ethnic cleansing” at the very least. As for working conditions, workers in China have very few protections. In America we have the Occupational Safety and Health Act and laws to protect workers, in China it is basically sweatshop labor under brutal conditions ( thanks Wal-Mart, you are a big help for that market!)

    They are also vastly increasing their military spending and updating their technology. They are a threat to Taiwan, a peaceful and democratic nation and the only nation refused entry into the United Nations. And what has the United States done? Well, you would think we would want to stand up to them right? Tell them they had better put a stop to their human rights violations or there will be economic and diplomatic conseqeunces at the very least, right? In 1992, Bill Clinton lambastes former President George H. W. Bush for “coddling tyrants in Beijing” and when he gets into office he proceeds to do the same thing. In fact in the late 1990’s Clinton and Congress vote to give China “Most favored Nation” trading status on a permanent basis.

    It is time for both Republicans and Democrats to stand up to the Chinese. We are the worlds last remainding super power. The Chinese would like to change that. Lets see to it that they don’t!

    • R. Nelson

      Hey Tim, is there any country out there not licking America’s boots that you don’t consider a threat to us? China’s military spending isn’t even crumbs off the Pentagon’s table, for pete’s sake. “Oh boy, there’s someone out there with a submarine! Sound the alarm and prime the missiles–we gotta protect the homeland and cream everyone else!”

      Rothbard was right. We should just declare war on the earth and be done with it. And given America’s incessant warmongering, a little counterbalance might be a good thing.

      • Tim R.

        No, I don’t want to declare war on the Earth. There are plenty of countries out there I have a lot of respect for. I spent time in Australia and can tell you they are some of the nicest and most civilized people you’ll ever meet. I love the British. The French are great (especially since Sarkozy!). Irish and Canadians are great too.

        • Lester Ness

          China is very nice, too, Tim. The biggest danger to the US is Bush type fanaticism.

          Lester Ness

    • nathan

      We have seen the Chinese enemy, and they are us. If the Chinese cut off trade with us and pull their dollars out of our economy and put it all into Euros, you, Tim, are not only going to be walking around shoeless, but also probably sleeping under a bridge.
      Good luck trying to connect your computer to make your feel-tough comments.

    • L. Paulus

      Tim, your hackneyed GOP “but what about Clinton” claptrap is about as convincing as a dirty sponge trying to clean a counter. In case you haven’t noticed, this submarine incident occurred in the second term of your hero, Dubya, after the military has been fortified with hundreds of billions of dollars. Blaming Clinton for the failures of the military just won’t cut it.

      Regarding the Chinese, they have as much a right to a Navy as the United States does. The United States does not own the world and outer space, as much as people like yourself might think to the contrary. Your hero’s incessant, arrogant bullying won’t work with the Chinese or the Russians, and while they have been allowing Dubya to take as much rope as he thinks he needs to hang himself in ruinous adventures, they are also making sure that if the lunatic fringe decides to strike out against them, there will be a series of very nasty surprises waiting for the U.S. military.

      And regarding your tinny parole to somehow keep the Chinese from eclipsing the United States, that’s an impossible objective for a nation that has mortgaged all of its potential to be a superpower. The American ponzi scheme of an economy will reveal your designs to be nothing more than militaristic, masturbatory fantasies.

      • Tim R.

        L. Paulus, I agree that Bush has been way too cozy with the Chinese and its disgraceful. But in case you did not notice, it was Bill Cliton who was in office when we granted them permanent favored nation trading status. And it was Bill Clinton always rolling out the red carpet for Jiang Zemin and the rest of the Chinese thugs.

    • SANDMAN

      Tim,you sound like an ass,the way your bush makes enimies you soon will have the world at your door,the american way is ‘kill them all and let god sort it out’some thing you and bush would say,you are a hateful race of people,first the russians,the chinese now the muslums,who next.now the uas has power but as history goes for how long????THE END OF THE USA WILL COME IF IT DOES NOT CHANGES,the troops are not heroes as heroes do not kill kids and women like in afgan and iraq,more like whole sale murder buy you president
      raceist is not cool

    • Charles Featherstone

      So, the persecution of Tibetans… this explains why China Telecom phone bills are in Chinese AND Tibetan?

    • BlueNomad (somewhere on Earth)

      Poor Tim,
      Good Grace! How on Earth can someone be so thick??? You tell me…Your comment is the clumsiest, dumbest I have read in a very long time as well as totally uneducated!
      Yo are a true specimen of the ”ugly American”!

      • Tim R.

        Blue Nomad, I’m glad that you can refute my points with logic rather than ad hominom attacks.

        • Swami Barmi

          I don’t have time to get into detail with yet another Tim R thread of absurdities, but this comment needs responding to.

          “Blue Nomad, I’m glad that you can refute my points with logic rather than ad hominom attacks.”

          I used a series of posts explaining in painstaking detail and logic my side of the issue. Your responses were a thorough degeneration into simplification, ignoring virtually every point I made. Your arguments across the board are at that level: you offer a simplistic contention that country “x” is a threat to us and “we” have to fight them. Any detailed explanation is met by you with a unsubstantiated contentions, avoidance of US provocations, and finally, a panicked plea for protection from the bad guys.

        • Tim R.

          Swami, I actually rather enjoyed our discussions. I’m sorry if you feel my debating skills are not up to par. If there was something specific you feel I did not respond to please feel free to let me know. What specific points did I fail to respond to? Perhaps I am just a simple minded American. Yes, I see things in terms of right and wrong, good and evil. Iran is an evil regime based on their actions. They stir up and foment Islamic radicalism and terrorsim. China, although not as much of a direct threat, is an evil regime, based on its actions and lack of respect for basic humans rights like freedom of religion.

          Call me simple, call me foolish, call me what you will. But any nation that does not respect basic freedoms, such as freeom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of religion and assembly, such a nation is, in my simplistic worldview, evil. I guess I’m old fashioned but I still believe in this quaint notion we call “freedom.”

        • Swami Barmi

          This Chinese submarine surprise could be the start of a new form of cat-and-mouse game like we used to play with the Soviets. No big deal in and of itself, but very disturbing when considering how unnecessary the motivating factors are. We’re also seeing some of the differences between the two secretive and destructive administrations of Bush and Nixon. Nixon’s treatment of China while conducting the Vietnam War is full of remarkable nuance and shrewd political maneuvering, whether one agrees with his policies or not. Imagining this kind of delicate political dance from the likes of Bush would be hysterical were it not so depressing. Like it or not, China is shaping up to be the world’s second superpower, perhaps third, and they appear to be taking a far more intelligent approach than we are. No, China is nowhere near our military peer, your scaremongering notwithstanding. They’re too damned smart to waste such a huge percentage of their capitol on weapons that will not be used; they’re too busy building an economic powerhouse. Economy is going to play an even larger role in superpower status than before and apparently they know it. Establishing friendships via diplomacy works better to get what they want than establishing it with threats of war, coups, or withdrawals of free money. Also, this country refuses to learn the lessons of 4th generation warfare. We’re wasting a lot of money on expensive hardware that’s based on military philosophies that have been outdated for years. This submarine surprise also isn’t the only example of our navy learning its true place in this modern world:

          “A lone South African submarine has left the NATO Maritime Group red faced when it “won” against a fleet of NATO and South African ships in an exercise. The exercise between NATO and South Africa took place off the Cape Coast.

          The SAS Manthatisi was pursued using sonar and radar but successfully eluded and destroyed all “enemy” ships.”

          Shall we test to see just who has Russia’s sunfire missiles ready to fire?

          Once again you present us with the red herring of “freedom” being the motivating factor in your lust for blood, and the straw man of anyone who doesn’t agree with you must be against freedom. As much as you want to twist it, this is not an either/or proposition. Human rights have NOTHING to do with why we’re going to war with these nations. This I addressed in my posts, and this you ignored in your responses (among many, many other things). But apparently you still want to ignore the elephant in the room and focus on freedom and evil. For your information, there were people living and dying under evil tyrants, regimes, tribes, and groups of rulers under any other name you’d care to think of over 200 years ago when our founders decided we should leave them to their unsolvable mayhem. There will continue to be people living and dying under evil tyrants, regimes, tribes, and groups of rulers under any other name you’d care to think of over 200 years in the future. The difference for Americans is this: this state of inevitability can occur with or without the deaths of thousands of Americans and with or without the financial ruin of America. You’re taking your pick and I’m taking mine. They hate us because we’re there and it IS possible to empathize with them by virtue of how we look at people meddling in our affairs. Heck, not just our affairs: We established the Monroe Doctrine so they wouldn’t mess with our HEMISPHERE! We do worse than that to these people ALL THE TIME and people like you wonder why they hate us. Well, no, you don’t: you just take the word of an idiot that they hate us for our freedoms. I’m sorry, this black and white, good vs evil world you fantasize about does not exist.

          As for Taiwan, another country you couldn’t give a rat’s ass about outside of it “supporting” your arguments: Taiwan is a part of China whether you like it or not. The minority’s fight for independence is not worth our time, blood, and money. A 2005 poll of those living in Taiwan found that 77% approved of cross-straits negotiations on the basis of One China, Two Interpretations. This may come as a shocking disclosure to you, but our presence there, in the Middle East, on Russia’s doorstep, and everywhere else on the globe is seen by others as being similar to the Soviet Union’s presence in Cuba in the early 60s. We’re on their backs; we’re in their faces; we’re provoking them; we’re interfering with them. We’re killing people by the millions, yet you deign to fret over ill-treatment of women and/or workers. Guess what? In China where these factory workers work in atrocious conditions, those very conditions are an improvement over their previously pointless rural lives. They CHOOSE to work in those conditions because they feel it’s still an improvement. Go ahead, take it away. They only allow one child and forcibly abort females? Is this America’s problem? Should we invade China tomorrow and guarantee the complete downfall of our nation? This is what you’re unwittingly (I’d really like to emphasize that word) advocating: the final downfall of the Great American Experiment.

          I wouldn’t expect you to understand the complexities of Chinese civilization any more than I expected you to understand the complexities of the various sects of Islam and their interrelationships and animosities. Even if I expected you to even ATTEMPT to understand China’s recent history of millions slaughtered, I’d never expect you to realize that it might take some time before unfettered freedom visited those people. Even if I thought you’d recognize how long it took American blacks to gain their freedom from the Emancipation Proclamation to the civil rights turmoil of the 1960s, I wouldn’t expect you to give the same consideration for foreigners. If they can’t free their people, let’s kill them until they do.

          As I said in one of my unanswered posts, America is hopelessly bogged down by loosely allied rabbles in two countries right now. I know you people thought Afghanistan was a great success, but as many of us already knew, it was only a matter of time before those people took their country back. Wasted time, blood, and money it was. Nevertheless, you think we can fight far greater powers — entire regions, with what troops, money, and support I don’t know.

          Again: these countries repress millions. We KILL millions. Equal rights for women may make up for that difference in YOUR mind, but when it means equal rights to die by a bomb that’s “Made In The USA”, those people tend to get angry and some day strike back as best they can. Despite the fact that they will suffer with us, the rest of the world now hates us so much — in devastatingly sharp contrast to how they felt six years ago — that they’re ready to drop the dollar and watch this nation sink. No amount of lobbying from Washington will be able to pull us back: the world will have already decided that American hegemony is over. And we’ve already outsourced most of what this nation was built on. Wake up.

    • ceedee

      To see how easily the US finds other progressive nations such as China, a “threat” only serves to show how this country is imperial in attitude, culture, and its thinking. Every country that has a progressive model and strive to reduce or even eliminate subserviency on the US is a threat. The US operates its “Cop” role in all 4 corners of this world, spying on countries, propping up subservient govt’s, creating and financing wars, killing leaders, and supporting dictators who will serve the US agenda, and you have the nerve to say other countries are threats? Dude its the other way around!!!!
      And please dont talk about human rights because the biggest abuser of human rights is the USA. No respect for the soverignity of other countries. Go into Iraq, kill millions of people, go to Afghanistan, kill hundreds of thousands opf people. And the other countless countries they have been and murdered people in the name of “Democracy”.
      The hypocrisy of this Govt is beyond anything of my imagination.

      • Tim R.

        You call China a “progressive nation?” Well, if you believe that I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn. Progressive?! Ever hear of something called forced abortions and a one child policy?

    • James Richardson

      Hi Tim
      By standing up to the Chinese do you mean reading them a piece of our mind perhaps, maybe really telling them off good and proper. I have a suggestion…look at the label inside your shirt, pants, coat whatever…no doubt you might find it was made in China. The money you paid for all those “made in China” items are now being loaned back to our government so George Bush will have the money to fund his wars. Have you told off the banker or mortgage company you deal with lately??? What was their response?
      China is now one of America’s biggest bankers. If it so chose China could dump its dollars and collapse our economy in hours…something they’ve hinted at. It is too late to tell them off. Go to Wal-Mart and see where they are getting their merchandise. If you really want to make a statement “stop buying Chinese goods PERIOD!”
      Here’s another point I only recently come to realize…Most consumer goods are almost all made somewhere else. We still build planes, some trains, some cars, some tractors, turbines etc. But very little consumer goods. The one exception is in the area of pornography. America probably makes the very best porn in the entire World…bar none.
      Now that is a sad comment on our situation today.

    • James G. Fitzgerald

      Tim, you are my enemy; not the Chinese.

      • Tim R.

        James Richardson is precisely right. We buy far too many goods from China. Yes, I am guilty of it too. I am indirectly responsible for the deplorable working conditions experienced by Chinese labor. We should all try to buy things made in the USA or if not, at least things made in countries that have laws mandating safe working conditions, child labor laws, minimum wage, etc. China certainly does not fit that bill! Wal-Mart is nothing more than a distribution center for Chinese goods. We need to also get serious with the Chinese when it comes to trade. Make no mistake, they want our markets and they need our markets, we should use that to our advantage.

    • Lester Ness

      “The Chinese are a rising threat to our national security….”

      Blah, blah, blah. A bunch of yellow peril nonsense. I actually live in China, and don’t find the Chinese military too scary.

      The best way for the US to be secure is to make friends with the rest of humanity, not turn everyone into enemies.

      Lester Ness
      Kunming
      PR China

    • It’s truly unbelievable there are still people who believe that Islamic Fascists are the real threat to the world..the real threat is when people go to war based on lies and destroy countries, in this sense Islamic Fascists do not even scratch the surface… Do the numbers.. Do you not realize that countries create boogie men to control the masses.

      • Tim R.

        Oh ok, so I guess when I got off the subway on 9/11/01 and watched the towers come down before my very eyes, I guess that was in my imagination. Or perhaps I am mistaken and none of the people who committed that act were of the Islamic faith? Thank you for correcting my erroneous beliefs.

    • Colonel_Khadafis_Fried_Chadian

      China is a rising threat to our security. Unfortunately we are no able to deal with it because we wouldnt want to hurt all those delicious business agreements.

    • Your ignorant comments about Tibet and Taiwan only shows how little you know about the real issues here. And yet your arrogant tone about the human rights in China, and here in US reflected your narrow minded bias and prejudice.
      It is the people and horrible thoughts like you and yours that we came to have leaders like Bsh and Chenny, and irresponsible actions like invading Iraq happened.
      It is pity to see this great nation turned into what we see today.
      Too many people and leaders like you and Bush is the real reason that our democracy is failing.
      Oh, The Mighty God, help this nation. Please!

  • Stanley Laham

    I am somewhat perplexed by all the hoopla from the pentagon about the potential military challenge that the People’s Republic of China could potentially pose to the United States. Not a month goes by without the Pentagon not heralding it either to the public or the congress. Yet we barely hear a whisper about the military capabilities of Russia, which are not potential but very actual. As a matter of fact, one of the most feared element of China’s rising naval might stems from their purchase of deadly effective Russian missile destroyers. Yet Russia itself is rarely mentioned with the same alarm by the US military brass, the only country with the nuclear might to pose an existential threat to the US.

    Russia’s Kursk class nuclear submarines could potentially wipe out an entire aircraft carrier battle group in a matter of minutes. Some time ago, the same Kitty Hawk carrier was over-flown by Russian fighter bombers that practiced a mocked bombing pass while photographing the bewildered super-carrier deck crew caught totally by surprise. To make sure that the point was made, the Russian pilots then faxed these photos back to the Kitty Hawk with the annotation that had this been the real thing, they would now be at the bottom of the sea. The Pentagon first refused to comment, then admitted the incident while minimizing its importance almost as if it was a bad boy’s joke. So why the discrepancy in the treatment of these two incidents? Is there method in this madness?

    I think the reason is apparent. Whereas the US can contemplate a possible confrontation with the People’s Republic over Taiwan in the China Sea and come out victorious while reminding the Chinese of their second rate status, such an adventure with Russia in the Caspian Basin or anywhere else can not be envisaged for now by the empire builders in charge of our country these days. And since it is in the nature of arrogant bullies to pounce on weaker perceived adversaries while handling with care, even ignoring a strong opponent, then the method becomes clear.

  • jojo

    4,500 setting ducks ! Just like Pearl harbour,all in one spot.

  • Carol Watson

    Stanley, perhaps part of the demonization of China rather than Russia is because China is already our rival for the world’s oil reserves, getting most of the Gulf region’s production already, whereas Russia is not in competition because it has so much oil of its own that it can export a huge surplus.

    • Stanley Laham

      That is only partly true Carol. During the Cold War, there was a tacit understanding between the US and USSR that the oil of the Middle East was ours whereas the reserves of the Caspian Basin was theirs. However after the dismantling of the Soviet Union and the demise of the Warsaw Pact, the US, NATO, and this new predatory capitalism we have seen emanating from the West tried to grab as much of those resources from Russia as they could.

      Then came Putin who said that enough is enough and has began to reassert Russia’s might, reminding the Americans of the potent power of his nation. In his last speech he qualified these rapacious ambitions of the US as “political erotica”. That is why for the last two years, he has been demonized much more than any individual Chinese leader.

      But as I point out, the new empire knows its limits. You don’t confront someone who can easily deter you. Whereas the Chinese, for the moment, can not protect the routes of their oil supplies. Again for the moment, they can not project their power globally. The oil of the Gulf enriches American oil companies as much as anyone else. The day it becomes convenient, the Chinese will simply be cut off. And it seems the Pentagon wants to keep it that way. The Chinese exploration contract with the Sudan for the oil of Darfur and US ambitions to replace them has a lot to do with the feigned concern for its inhabitants.

  • Carter M

    Tim R., it’s nice to see you leaving your haunts at the Weekly Standard and venturing out into the world. One question: the U.S. threatens China with “sanctions”, “economic and diplomatic consequenses at the very least” implying you’d keep military action on the table too, right? Then what?

    Would that mean that we’d no longer let them finance our crushing national debt? Make them dump all of their dollar holdings?

    Have you started shaving yet? Do your parents have you on a curfew? Are you even capable of reading? After such as scenario, the U.S. MIGHT…repeat MIGHT recover to the point of say, Chad, within the following century. Our economy would collapse overnight; electricity would become a luxury you couldn’t afford.

    Do some basic research and stop making such idiotic statements.

    • SANDMAN

      very good post,a person who does his home work

    • Tim R.

      Carter, first thank you for your witty and sarcastic insults. I can always use a laugh. Secondly, yes, we should stop allowing them to finance our debt, it is very troubling. But with that said, however, they still need us more than we need them. They need our markets. I mean Wal-Mart itself is their main distribution point for consumer goods. Yes,we need to rethink and revise our policies with them but I will still place my bets with the good ole USA.

  • thanks good post

  • Carol Watson

    However, China is also seeking to purchase oil right here in the Western Hemisphere from Venezuela, a major petroleum producing source for the US. We currently purchase about 60% of Venezuela’s output, which represents roughly 15% of all American oil imports. This article from 2005 speaks to the China-Venezuelan oil connection:

    “U.S. mulls losing oil supplies from Venezuela”
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6826081

    As a brief aside, Brazil has just discovered an immense oil field off its coast. I expect we will be hearing a whole bunch of criticism about Brazil shortly if history is the judge.

    • Charles Featherstone

      CNOOC (China National Offshor Oil Corp.) has been making medium-to-large investments in this hemisphere for some years now. One of the reasons Hugo Chavez may be mediating in the Colombian civil war is that several Chinese oil firms would like a pipeline built to the Pacific, making it easier for Venezuela and Colombia to ship crude to Asia. Little is likely to come of this, however.

      As for Brazil’s bout of offshore oil finds, Petrobras has been building itself up as an international major gaining experience dealing with difficult and deep offshore fields. In fact, Petrobras in one of the few firms skilled in that kind of work, and I think Brazil is now a net exporter. Chinese firms can add little in the way of technology or skills, but they can bring in capital. However, most Chinese investment is limited by the bout of populism currently striking South America’s major hydrocarbon states (Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador) and the fact that most of those resources cannot be transported easily or even at all. Bolivia is a net natgas producer, and is landlocked. The reason for investing there for Chinese firms would be the same for any investment — get a return on capital. Or, to make it simple, make money.

      The government of the People’s Republic of China has, for some time now, dispensed aid and investment with few or no strings attached. (Unlike some governments we know.) This has created a great deal of goodwill for China around the world, both on the part of governments and, to some extent, popularly. No doubt being an alternative to American oil firms, which come with Washington attached, also clearly has its attractions.

  • Kyfho Myoba

    I am reminded of an argument made by James Dale Davidson & Lord Rees-Mogg in one of their three books (The Great Reckoning, or Blood in the Streets, or The Sovereign Individual, can’t remember which, they’re all VERY good and inform on such a wide range of human action) about the impact of technology on geopolitical and meta-political activity. In a nutshell: Certain military (and otherwise) technologies favor either offense or defense. As all human activity has costs (both direct and opportunity costs), the way to analyze trends in geopolitics is to look at the technology available and tally up the costs of projecting power (offense) and deterring said projection. For example, the machine gun economizes for the defense, the tank, advances in artillery favor the offense. Currently, the US is spending enormous sums on stealth technology, which is most useful for offense. It’s also re-e-e-e-ealy expensive. Missile technology is far, far cheaper, and favors the defense. So. Look at the costs for aircraft carrier battle groups, stealth fighters & bombers and the costs for advancing these technologies, and then look at the costs of missiles & delivery systems and the rates of improvements (think Moore’s Law) for each. The answer should be obvious: Empires are obsolete.

    • Ranting Master

      You have to consider relative strength and relative cost, too.

      B-52 with JDAM-equipped bombs are quite cheap to the US (relatively speaking; prerequisite is that the GPS satellite system be up) but the countermeasure — high-altitude anti-aircraft missiles — is unattainably expensive (relatively speaking) to underequipped Taliban guerilla.

      Now, if you go up against a country that can clear the skies and the seas of enemy weapons platforms, then indeed, the case for “big ticket items” that help in ensuring a “bloodless victory” — and thus an easily sellable one — can no longer be made.

      Still, we may be gearing up for new horrors. Advances in robotics and information processing might one day reduce your invading army to nothing more than a swarm of mass-produced mechanised wasps. How about that? Hopefully, development will take some time.

  • BlueNomad (somewhere on Earth)

    Poor Tim,
    I live in China and I can assure you that Taiwan is not the little idealistic democratic country you described! Their president is a hysterical, little Napoleon (minus the brain) and is acting against the will of over half the Taiwanese population. His election was anything but democratic (a la Bush). Let me add that some of the worst companies operating in China are owned by Taiwanese and Hong Kong business men. They are among the worst when it comes to pollution, security and occupational hazards and will do anything to maximize profits and dividends!
    I see happy Tibetans every day on the streets of numerous Chinese cities and they don’t strike me as being persecuted. Last but not least, they weren’t massacred like Native Americans (genocide) and can, like most Chinese now-a-day, practice their religion.
    Ach, ach Tim…USA über Alles!!!

    • John Lowell

      Huh?

      While its certainly not mine to defend the view of Tim R. here or elsewhere, if we’re to understand your comment above as a defense in some way of the Chinese seizure of Tibet in 1950, can we assume that next you’ll be trying to justify the innumerable atrocities of Mao Tse Tsung?

      And can you possibly be serious with such as:

      “and can, like most Chinese now-a-day, practice their religion …”

      Explain, please, how it is that Catholics in China are permitted to “practice their religion”? Among other things, the state will not even permit the Pope to appoint Chinese bishops to the consternation of Catholics throughout the world. On the whole, Communist China has utterly suppressed free expression of the Christian faith. And its hardly sufficient to defend the abomination that Chinese Communism is and always has been by embarking upon a critique of American history. Whatever the Unites States is or has become in recent times it can’t begin to compare to the inhuman monstrousity that Red China has been since its founding in 1949.

      John Lowell

      • justaguy

        Oh for goodness sakes. China stopped being “Red” decades ago. It is a Chicago School capitalist paradise.

        And who cares whether the Vatican gets to pick a bishop or whatever the daintily dressed assassins are called.

        • John Lowell

          Oh for goodness sake. Sure it isn’t justabigot and not justiguy? Maybe its justaschlemeil.

          Wish your comment were that benign, ace, but it wasn’t. Its just thoroughly noxious that you’d come to site like this where peace is valued and endorse the persecution of religion. Lose your way somehow, chief? Sounds like you belong in a daintily adorned bedsheet atop some mountain in Georgia.

          John Lowell

        • justaguy

          Jebus, I didn’t expect the Spanish inquisition.

          Do you actually have an argument or just oh so clever familiarities to use as some sort (in your mind) of attempted insult? One bunch of authoritarians influencing another bunch of authoritarians doesn’t get me excited.

          If you want to carry on about your particular strand of authoritarian magic sky being worship as opposed to real stuff, choose someone else to practice on.

          China is NOT a communist state. The Roman church is an authoritarian global political organization bent on the aquisition of power and money.

        • John Lowell

          Oh, I don’t hold discussions with or present arguments to haters like you, chief, I simply identify them for what they are. Take your anti-Catholic poison back to the hole you crawled out of, and if you can, find time to take a bath. You’re carrying an odour.

        • justaguy

          Anti-catholic poison eh? Tee hee.

  • George Kurian , India

    I am from India. I hold no brief for the Chinese. I think that their policies vis-a-vis Tibet,individual freedom and democracy are not good but actually detrimental for the future of true Chinese culture. The philosophy behind our practices today will affect the way our descendents behave tomorrow.For example,the war between the tribes in Rwanda has cultural links to Belgian colonialism.The USA today plays an Imperial role in the world because the British Empire was, and still is, trumpeted as a magnificent achievement.Empire building was seen as beautiful and civilising till Germany decided to Empire build in Europe.

    Yet, I think we all have to accept that other people will be different from us. They have their own problems and perspectives and the only way that the US can help is by gentle persuasion. The example I like to quote is that of the Norwegians in Sri lanka. If the US has to play that role, it has to be high minded and enlightened and forget “self interest”. The only reason, then, for going to war would be if there is unequivocal evidence that there is a direct attack on a sovreign nation without – and this is important – without provocation.

    America had no right to go to war against Al qieda in Afghanistan if it did not answer Bin Laden’s criticisms in 1996 when he asked America to leave the Sacred lands of Arabia. America would not, of course, do that because it has this prodigious appetite for oil.

    • Tim R.

      So George, let me get this straight, Bin Laden was unhappy because of our military presence in Saudi Arabia and since we did not heed his advice and leave, he had the right to attack us and kill more Amerian civilians in one day than in any other day in the history of our country? That is the most preposterous thing I ever heard. You must be smoking something funny.

      And by the way, the last time I checked, the reason the United States military came to Saudi Arabia in the first place was because Iraq invaded Kuwait in August of 1990 and had troops massed on the Saudi border and the Saudi government ASKED for our help. Well as for as I’m concerned the Saudi government foments Islamic radicalism and is a dispicable bunch of despots who we should have presented with a declaration of war on September 12th 2001, but that’s another story.

      And by the way, George, what in the hell does your post have to do with the issue at hand anyway? I mean I thought we were talking about China?

      • Kyfho Myoba

        Who says that OBL attacked the US? Bush? Where is his proof? [“It’s super-secret!!”] Can it be independently verified? [“No, I told you it’s super-secret and I can’t tell you ’cause you’re not in our club!”] Has an independent tribunal seen the records of the airlines involved? [no] Does this administration have a track record for lying? Has the US engaged in false flag operations before?

        Heads up: The US has had bases in Saudi for about 25 years. Reagan spent $200 billion putting them in there. Remember the AWACS sale? That was just the big ticket item. You forget, the US military/industrial complex is the Saudi’s praetorian guard. The Saudi leadership is decadent, hypocritical & corrupt. THAT’S why OBL hates them (and us for supporting them).

    • Wes

      “The USA today plays an Imperial role in the world because the British Empire was, and still is, trumpeted as a magnificent achievement.Empire building was seen as beautiful and civilising till Germany decided to Empire build in Europe.”

      George, maybe the British Empire was once so considered in the past, it definitely is not right now. There has been a raft of very pointed literature recently discussing British atrocities, massacres, genocides and otherwise in Ireland, South Africa (perhaps 10% of the Boer population, mostly women and children, killed in the British concentration camps), mass murder of native peoples in the Americas and Oceania, and yes, in India, very brutal British policies. Mass murders and work/death camps little different from Bergenbelsen sprouting up in India to exploit and kill Indian workers en masse after the 1857 rebellion, perhaps 20% of Bengal’s population killed off by East India Company policies in the late 1700’s while this formerly rich area was ruined, tens of millions more people in India being killed in the next century in British India by a combination of malignant neglect and deliberate supplanting of foodstuff-growing fields. Then the Opium Wars, British RAF terror-bombing in Somalia and the Middle East (where Arthur Bomber Harris was first maligned), and so on.

      The only way that today, one could consider the British Empire to have been a net positive, is through sheer ignorance. The historical consensus now is that it was a very murderous, exploitative, brutal, potentially genocidal and ruinous institution that caused tremendous damage, and far from in any way being a model of capitalism and democracy, it suppressed capitalistic and democratic movements in the colonized nations at every opportunity. Quite a few historians have been indicating that the Empire was a good deal worse than the Nazis in its total impact.

      This is not a commentary on the UK now, IMHO Britain today is definitely a kind of model citizen in the world community, with a focus on environmentalism and human rights, despite blundering into the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, among other things. But there’s a lot of ugly history in the UK that hasn’t been fully acknowledged, unlike in other countries.

    • Wes

      BTW, some historians who discuss the brutality of the British Empire and this growing historical consensus if you’re interested:

      John Newsinger, Caroline Elkins, David Anderson, Amartya Sen, Mark Curtis and scores of others.

      These are hard-hitting books with titles like Britain’s Gulag, Histories of the Hanged, Web of Deceit (Britain’s Real Role in the World) and so forth, and meticulously documented. The British Empire was not in any way benevolent or even unintentionally beneficial George, there’s a lot of dirty laundry that’s just now being aired in great detail.

  • I’ve just seen the report about the Russian jets overflying the Kitty Hawk.

    What are these guys going to do when Iran send a thousand small boats loaded with anti-ship missiles at them?

    Sink, that’s what.

    Although as Colonel Sam Gardiner said, when you see our carriers being pulled OUT of the Gulf, THAT’S when the Iran war is going to start. Because the Navy knows they’re sitting ducks in the Straits or the Gulf.

    And guys, they’re down to one carrier there now…They’ve pulled one out of the two that were there.

    I think we’re getting close.

    • Tim R.

      Richard, a thousand small Iranian boats with anti ship missiles? Hmmmm. That versus a US Navy aircraft carrier battle group? Well, if this were Las Vegas and I were a betting man I would still have to go with the aircraft carrier battle group!

  • Lester Ness

    Face reality guys,the Pres. is an Armegeddonite, the End of the World is his goal. China is not in the Bible at all.

    Lester Ness
    Kunming
    China

  • Lester Ness

    What is “within viable range”? A nautical mile? 10?

    Lester Ness
    Kunming
    China

  • Wes

    Tim, I’m in China– no censorship of the Website here. Yes, the so-called Great Firewall can be annoying sometimes, above all a waste of time and a drain on productivity since you don’t get reliable access to sites. But most sites, even controversial ones are unblocking and there’s increasing leeway. There’s a lot more free expression here in China than you acknowledge, with or without clumsy attempts to shut it down (which usually don’t work).

    The government for all its flaws, sees itself as trying to maintain some semblance of social harmony among a very large and vigorous population and with all due respect, they really do have a difficult challenge on their hands. While there are many corrupt officials as in any government, and indeed some problems with transparency and protection of intellectual property here– to my own surprise, I’ve tended to find Chinese officials to overall care a whole lot about being good public servants and doing a good job for the people they represent. They’re trying to strike a difficult balance here. As the country grows stronger and more confident, if anything the controls and the rule here seem to become more benign. Criticisms over bumbling policies are now more openly made– constructive criticisms that invite potential solutions in particular, are if anything increasingly welcomed.

    Again, you have the balance between social harmony here in what is sometimes a fragile economic state, and the real need for transparency and forthright acknowledgment of flaws– without descending into the cynicism and fruitless negativism we often have in the USA or Britain especially. And again, there’s an actual respect for public service here, whereas in the USA, our politicians are increasingly selected on the basis of egotism and scratching their buddies’ backs. The trick in the balance is to select for dedicated leaders with an interest in public service while also allowing for decent citizen input, and not allowing any sort of electoral system to degenerate into the bought-and-sold ruling classes who increasingly dominate the US and Britain. It’s not perfect but there’s constant improvement, and even increasing citizen participation and input through numerous channels.

    And honestly, the mainland Chinese themselves are among the friendliest people you’ll meet. They frequently speak German for business/scientific reasons, often also English, Spanish, French, they’re curious about the world, and overall quite welcoming to foreigners. Especially if you speak some Chinese yourself, you’re more than welcome.

    And too often, people in US/UK obsess over the Taiwan issue and don’t really understand it. It’s a family feud here between two ethnically Chinese peoples with a complicated and interlinked history, not a stand-off between enemy nations as American think tanks often assume.

    As China becomes more open, wealthy, confident and internationally respected, then the tensions with Taiwan also decrease since they come to mutually benefit each other, and also since increasing openness on both sides makes even the governmental differences less than before. (Even now, those differences are exaggerated– both Taiwan and Mainland China still share many basic aspects of civil law and administration that date all the way back to the German and Prussian civil systems that were imported all the way back during Bismarck’s tenure.)

    What I foresee is that probably Taiwan and China will come to an accord where Taiwan is more-or-less in a kind of linked zone with China, Hong Kong, and some offshore islands the way different European countries are associated with each other. Again, the buzzword is mutual benefit– this sort of thing is a big win-win for both sides. And when this happens, and again as China again attains a respected global status, China’s confidence will help further reforms on things like intellectual property and banking transparency.

    IOW, I frankly just don’t see long-term, any strong historically-based reason for the USA to regard China in any way as a massive threat. We’ll have another very strong nation and probably a bigger economy than us to deal with, Mandarin Chinese will become a critical language, but so what?

    The European Union already is outclassing us in many of these departments, and is already a bigger economy, German and French are both important global standards esp German in highly professional fields– and so what? No big deal, we’ll deal with it just fine. A somewhat multipolar world may even be better as far as checks and balances are concerned.

  • Lester Ness

    Guys, I was actually a sailor on the Kitty Hawk, once upon a time, and this submarine thing was always happening in maneuvers with the Australians, et al. Even the year when we had an entire anti-submarine air wing aboard, the subs managed to sneak through. This was 30 years ago.

    Make friends with China, don’t try to keep the military industrial complex going by inventing new cold wars every few years.

    Definitely don’t go on killing sprees in places like Viet Nam, Nicaragua, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. It’ll destroy us in the long run (probably Bin Laden’s goal).

    Lester Ness

  • John C.

    “Tim, I’m in China– no censorship of the Website here.”
    Are you a Chinese agent? Are you using a fake name? How can you say something that’s so obviously false?

    “China is very nice, too, Tim. The biggest danger to the US is Bush type fanaticism.”
    Well, if you visit ANY country, the average Joe Blow on the Street is always very nice. I’m sure the average German in Nazi Germany was very nice. It’s what goes on in the minds of the Chinese Communist Party leaders and the Red Army brass that is not so nice. No, Bush is an idiot but he does actually believe in democracy. The Chinese leaders most assuredly do not.

    “So, the persecution of Tibetans… this explains why China Telecom phone bills are in Chinese AND Tibetan?”
    Duhhh, if we invaded China and printed bills in both English and Chinese, does that somehow make the whole thing benign? The fact is that Tibet does not belong to China, historically, and the Chinese have taken over someone else’s territory merely because they could.

    Let’s have no illusions here. The Chinese government IS an evil dictatorship that routinely violates human rights (orders of magnitude greater than what U.S. might have done). The Chinese dream is to displace the U.S. as the sole superpower. (Someone kindly pointed out that the European Union already exceeds the U.S., but seriously, it’s not a single political entity, just a loose collection of independent states). I’m not saying that we should treat them as enemies and antagonize the Chinese. We should work with them and make money off of them. At the same time, we should always keep in the back of our minds what they are really up to and make sure to always stay ahead of them. Although a full-scale war is out of question (because it will be nuclear), we should always be able to win a limited, conventional war if we had to, because that will keep them from throwing their weight around and bullying the neighboring countries. Because the quality of the American research infrastructure is far superior to the Chinese, and it will be that way for many decades, if not centuries, we should be able to manage this, even if the Chinese may exceed us in the total amount of goods manufactured, total cash reserves, etc.

  • John C.

    “And honestly, the mainland Chinese themselves are among the friendliest people you’ll meet. They frequently speak German for business/scientific reasons, often also English, Spanish, French, they’re curious about the world, and overall quite welcoming to foreigners. Especially if you speak some Chinese yourself, you’re more than welcome.”

    You must be referring to some highly select group of the Chinese since your Chinese fluently speak 4 different European languages and are so open-minded about the world. I would say the vast majority of the Chinese can’t speak anything other than their own language (many in fact can’t even speak Mandarin, the official Chinese language, but only their dialect). The average Chinese has been brainwashed into thinking that their country was at the center of the universe for thousands of years and their culture is therefore superior to everybody else’s, and it’s just a matter of time before they reclaim their rightful place at the center of the universe. The average Chinese might be called “nice”, meaning clueless, but definitely not “civilized”. They tend to be rather rude, loud, filthy, and hardly ever take baths or wash their hair.

    “And too often, people in US/UK obsess over the Taiwan issue and don’t really understand it. It’s a family feud here between two ethnically Chinese peoples with a complicated and interlinked history, not a stand-off between enemy nations as American think tanks often assume.”

    The ethnic Chinese, or the “Han”, never ruled over Taiwan. The Han has mainly occupied the middle and southern parts of the mainland China. Manchuria, Taiwan, and Tibet have historically belonged to various ethnic “minorities” (although they number in tens and hundreds of millions), or what the Han Chinese referred to as “northern barbarians”, “southern barbarians”, etc., since everyone other than themselves is a barbarian. Please remember the Great Wall of China was built by the Han to keep out the barbarians, so anything above the Great Wall is not really part of China. China as it stands today is really a Soviet Union, with the Han China just occupying Manchuria, Tibet, and whatever other neighboring countries they could lay their hands on, just like the way Russia was occupying Georgia, Beloruss, Estonia, etc. etc. The Chinese would’ve taken over Vietnam if they only could (which is why China and Vietnam fought each other after the U.S. left) and I’m sure they have no qualms about taking over Korea and Japan if they only could. The Chinese have NO LEGAL CLAIM to Taiwan because they are separate people, although many ethnic Chinese moved to Taiwan when the Communists took over.

    • sam dundas

      The Second world war Cairo conference in 1943 -44 attended by the allied political leaders Roosevelt,Churchil and co signed an agreement giving Taiwan back to the government of China.Using your logic about the wall,The Great wall of china doesnt keep out Tibet which must then be part of greater China

      Sam

    • sam dundas

      he Chinese would’ve taken over Vietnam if they only could (which is why China and Vietnam fought each other after the U.S. left)

      wrong?

      The Chinese wanted to give the viets a bit of payback because the vietnamese sorted out the Khymer Rouge who were supported by the chinese.The ancient border dispute was just an excuse.

  • John

    LOL…oh China! Won’t you please be my friend? I’ll be the bestest,nicest country in the world if you’ll just be my friend. Did ultra leftwingers all have a sad childhood with no friends and no bonding experiences? What is this pathological need to bend over and get f*cked?

  • John

    Go to a prison, live among everyday people in an ultra-violent society like Brazil or spend a year living in a large housing project in NYC or Chicago and then tell me if you think everyone in the world is basically nice and well meaning. The naivate among the privilaged middle and especially upper-middle classes in our country is frightening. They are the ones through their power and influence largely responsible for many of our ills. They (feign) to care more about “green’ issues for example than the ongoing violence in our inner-cities (that’s now rapidly spreading.) Far left social experimentation from the 60’s onwards have been a disasterous failure (especially for the disadvantaged who mimicked the antics of the upper classes but lack and lacked the golden parachute) so they’re just washing their hands and moving on to “environmental” issues and other whitewashing bulls*it. Not surprising many of these frauds like living in rural and college towns far away from the nightmare that’s been created in our large and small metro areas and inner cities.

  • John C.

    So what’s your point? Because the average Chinese is less violent than the average Brazilian, we have nothing to worry about the 7 million strong People’s Liberation Army that’s acquiring more and more sophisticated military equipment and is altering the balance of power in East and Southeast Asia?

    Or that we should siphon the defense budget into more violence and drug prevention programs in the inner city? That might be justifiable if it could be shown that 1) we are not spending enough on those programs, and 2) spending more will make a difference. I’m not sure if either has been shown to be the case.

  • John

    You missed my point entirely. Far left social and economic policies in vogue since the 60’s have (with a few exceptions, everything wasn’t perfect up to then) have been disasterous not only in the US but the West in general. We don’t need to spend more money on social programs, we need to spend far more wisely what’s being spent and use draconian methods to deal with our pernicious levels of violence and welfare dependancy. As a good start abolish all public housing, literally destroy them, and make the people in them learn to act responsible or suffer the consequences. The only people who deserve public sympathy and support are the mentally ill, senior citizens and children, and children when their usually deliberately irresponsible mommy is forced to act responsibly. Don’t reward anyone for having a child with no visable means of support. Build more and better prisons with longer terms in necessary; the thing the caused the downturn in violent crime during the 90’s was a large number of thugs were locked up for an extended period, but they eventually got out. It had little to nothing to do with social welfare programs. China is a communist totalitarian society and it’s obviously very foolish to “trust” such people; they’ve been geting away with murder as far as trade is concerned for a long time, especially with their under-valued currency but the US and Europeans need to act as one to confront them and that’s not likely to happen.

  • John

    And control our damn immigration! It’s a scandal what’s going on. We’re stupid to sheepishly accept the grotesque consequences of Latin American social and economic policies and big business insatiable desire for uncontrolled growth and cheap labor, not to mention political parties desire for power; some states, like Bush’s Texas, have seen explosive population (and political) growth due largely to legal and illegal hispanic immigration. I’m part Latin and I’m embarressed by the overall condition of Latin America. Brazil and Mexico could be like the US and Canada if they wanted to be. People on the ideological left and right need to stop making facile excuses for them.

  • sam dundas

    To all posters who have commented on Tibet and Chinas role:

    The West has a misplaced romantic vision of Tibet expounded by misinformed and misguided people from Hollywood etc etc. eg some mystic shangri La being ruined by the Chinese

    In fact it is nothing more than a backward feudalistic society where the monks lord it over the common population.

    The chinese have done the people a favour by introducing the 20th century to them and raised their life expectancy and living conditions and freeing them from religious mumbo jumbo.

    In fact some of the Tibetans who have gone along with the changes introduced by the Chinese are doing well to the ones who dont want to change.

    In fact if Tibet wasnt given this romanticed Hollywood view as the rooftop of the world, and if in fact it was geographically placed in a area such as Bangladesh, no one would give two hoots.

    Why does everyone think China Needs western style democracy which is totaly overated I by this I refer to Charles Dickens opinion of representative government in america when he refered to it as totally corrupt. Nothings changed.

  • Dave

    This story was reported by the Washington Times last Nov, 2006. I don’t see any reason to believe that there was a second, identical incident one year later.

  • sam dundas

    I dont know what history book you read on the history of china but it is certainly a distorted one.

    Fact tibet is a part of China and is acknowledged by the Dali Lama.I went to one of his talks and he gave a brief explanation. In the middle ages tibet and China were at war which tibet lost and the King of Tibet signed a treaty with the Chinese thus giving China dominion over the territory.
    This treaty is just as binding as any treaty America signed when it acquired territory during its expansion eg Texas Southern California where it fought wars with the Spanish etc etc..

    As for Taiwan. I refer you to the 1944 Cairo agreement signed allied war leaders Roosevelt ,Churchill etc etc giving Taiwan back to the government of China after the defeat of Japan. Japan had orginally taken Taiwan off China

  • SANDMAN

    to the peple who said chinese do not take a bath or are not clean don’t know the people and never were in china,I married a chinese girl and they like the japonese are the cleanest,they think of hot baths always unlike americans.if you think i am wrong go there.
    the people are kind but not trusting of westerns as look how bush talks of bombing this and that country,the chinese are pround and remember we go paper money from them,it was invented there.
    if you start war with then they will fight you as one people with 1,5 billion people and the agents in every country,they want to make money not war,only the USA of BUSH wants war with just about every one in the world,
    I guess it is hard trying to be world dictator when no one wante to play your game unless you threaten them with war,bombs or like in the case of Iran,your Bush wants to nuke them
    What kind of people do you americans vote for,criminals???all you hear from the USA is war or threats of war like a dinner gone bad,”all options on the table”tell me,what age are we living in,sounds like the dark ages where someone with a bigger stick gone out of contol.
    If we are to make it into the next century we’d better get rid of of the warmongers of the USA because when the birds fly it will be to late,these people will turn the earth to dust,think of the future and let us all live in peace on this planet

  • phil

    Tim,

    Its all about Israel first, isn’t it?

    You sound like someone out of the Joseph Goebbels school of journalism here. Or maybe the Ben Netanyahu school of propaganda. When are guys like you going to wake up and realize that this entire war was based upon entirely false premises and is for profit only?

    While it was Nixon and Kissinger that opened the door to China at the behest of David Rockefeller, the Bush family was one its biggest beneficiaries also from this treasonous free trade with the enemy. But its a family tradition with the Bushes as good old grandpa Prescott traded with the Nazis during WW2. Its all about money here.

    As far as the Traitor Norman Podheretz/Lunatic David Horowitz Israel-First fantasy term IslamoFascism goes, if you are so worried, I suggest you renounce your US citizenship along with all the Neocons and go fight for your beloved Israel. Then, let the rest of us work with President Ron Paul to clean up the mess that criminals such as Bush/Cheney and useful idiots such as yourself have created here.

    And don’t give me that “Clinton did this” and “Clinton did that” bullshit either. He was as much of the problem as the current regime. It doesn’t take a great mind to figure that out as there ain’t a dimes bit of difference between Clinton and Bush.

    • Tim R.

      Phil, I am a United States Citizen. I was born here, as were my parents and grandparents. So I take umbrage at your insinuation that I am putting “Israel first.” Yes, I am also a Jew and feel a connection to the Jewish people and I support the right of Israel to exist. But my unqualified and total loyalty and allgience is to the United States of America. I am sick and tired of people like you who try to lump everyone together and say they are not loyal Americans. And by the way, David Horowitz has never even been to Israel!

  • The Daily Mail is a tabloid, this “news” is one year old.

  • phil

    Tim,

    And you are also a racist. Islamo-Fascists indeed!! Talk about lumping people together.

    Why don’t you go burn a cross on the lawn of some poor Arab-American neighbor while you are at it. After all, they’re all the same!

    • Tim R.

      Phil, most people of the Islamic faith are not terrorists. Did you hear that? Let me repeat it since you think I’m a racist, most muslims are NOT terrorists. Every single human being, muslim and non muslim alike, is created in the image of God and should be judged on their specicic merits. However, pay attention now, most terrorists are muslim. Do you see the distinction? Or are you just going to shout about racism? Although I’m sure most Muslims are good and decent people, there is a very substantial minority, and in some countries a slight majority of Musims who are radical and yes, I will call them Islamo Fascists. Do you think Bill Clinton’s Secretary of State, Madeline Albright was a racist? Well, go and look at the research project she co-chaired. The Pew Global Attitudes Survey clearly shows that there are millions of radical Muslims and that is just pointing out a fact. Now remember, there are over one billion muslims in the world, but even a small percentage of a very large number, is itself a very large number. For example, if only 5% of Muslims are radical, we are talking about over 50 Million people! Do you understand?

      When I turned on CNN on the morning of 9/11/01 and I see Muslims shouting for joy and celebrating, dancing in the streets with ecstasy while the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center came down, what should I call them? Peaceful people? Wake up and face reality.

  • phil

    And furthermore, ALL nations AND people have a right to exist, not just your favorites!!

  • SANDMAN

    TIM. you are a racist and people like you are the terrorist of this planet as you plan the future wars aganist the poor of this planet, if you are American I am from Mars, I read your post and you are anti everything except Israel.

  • John

    “to the peple who said chinese do not take a bath or are not clean don’t know the people and never were in china,I married a chinese girl and they like the japonese are the cleanest,they think of hot baths always unlike americans.if you think i am wrong go there.”

    You don’t have to go to China. Just go to your local Chinatown. It’s usually one of the dirtiest parts of the town. This is true no matter which Chinatown you go to, whether in the U.S., Southeast Asia, Europe, etc. Contrast with Japantown, if there is one in your city. The difference is unmistakable.

    You mention the example of one Chinese person who pays attention to personal hygiene, and sure there are exceptions, particularly those who’s had a western-style upbringing, but the generalization unfortunately holds for the vast majority of the Chinese.

    People who have been to China often have lots of good things to say about it, but “clean” or “sanitary” isn’t one of the things that come up. The same thing with Chinese restaurants. There are Chinese restaurants no matter where you go on earth, and they always serve the cheapest food in that country. There may be a handful of really upscale places that you could take a date to, but it’s always the exception, not the rule.

  • John

    “Fact tibet is a part of China and is acknowledged by the Dali Lama.I went to one of his talks and he gave a brief explanation. In the middle ages tibet and China were at war which tibet lost and the King of Tibet signed a treaty with the Chinese thus giving China dominion over the territory.
    This treaty is just as binding as any treaty America signed when it acquired territory during its expansion eg Texas Southern California where it fought wars with the Spanish etc etc.”

    Dali Lama says he does not want independence, merely greater autonomy, because he knows he doesn’t have the power to drive out the Chinese, and is trying to settle for whatever he can get. He is merely being practical. The Chinese claim to Tibet is hard to justify. Tibet was at times conquered by foreigners, including Mongols, and the Chinese claim to Tibet is that the Qing dynasty conquered it. The Qing, however, is not actually a Chinese kingdom, but a Manchu kingdom that conquered the Ming China (ruled by the Chinese “Han”). Historically, the “Han” Chinese, which is the dominant ethnic group in China, have been conquered and ruled by foreginers many times, most notably the Mongols (the “Yuan” dynasty) and the Manchu (the “Qing” dynasty). Rather than to admit this, the Han Chinese have rather conveniently incorporated the Mongols and the Manchu into their own history, thus avoiding any mention of foreign subjugation. There is nothing that prevents the Chinese from invading Mongolia, for example, because a couple hundred years ago, the Mongols were in the same country as they were (except that it was the Mongols who ruled them at that time). To westerners, all “Chinese” are the same (or all Asians for that matter), so it’s hard to appreciate that China is really composed to multiple countries forcibly bound together.

    Listen, the Roman Empire ruled large parts of Europe for hundreds of years; it doesn’t mean that Turkey or Greece or France belongs to Italy today. The French (Napoleon), the English, the Germans (the Nazis), the Spaniards (Habsburgs), they all at one point conquered large parts of Europe. It doesn’t mean that they can claim their old territories today.
    The only way Tibet can truly be a part of China is if you held a free election in Tibet and the majority of the population elected to be in China. Of course, the Han Chinese would never let that happen. They want to keep a big country, and they will continue to oppress the ethnic minorities in China.

    • sam dundas

      Succeeding dynastys inheriting previous dynastys conquests is par for course. Just look at Gt Britain. England took over Scotland in the early middle ages under monarchial rule and under a different monarchial dynasty.
      In the 21st century,and despite the Scots desire for independence from England it has not been granted and not ever likely. I even notice that some native Hawaiians want self rule, can u see Washington leave Pearl Harbour.

      Listen, the Roman Empire ruled large parts of Europe for hundreds of years; it doesn’t mean that Turkey or Greece or France belongs to Italy today. The French (Napoleon), the English, the Germans (the Nazis), the Spaniards (Habsburgs), they all at one point conquered large parts of Europe. It doesn’t mean that they can claim their old territories today.

      And yet we are prepared to give the Jews a piece of land they called home based on some biblical mumbo jubo hey the jews left it they were scattered and now thousands of years later we give it back

      Your use of ancient empires to reinforce your case is flawed.
      The romans are gone they came out of a region in Italy and all conquests were done in the name of Rome not italy. Tibet was conquerd by the mongol Kahns starting from Kublai as emperor of China,and his dynasty was absorbed by Chinas as all subsequent rulling dynastys , such as the Manchus.etc etc. The Mongols and the Manchus stayed in China because they prefered it to their own region.but all that is a totally different issue.
      Once again look at England they have had kings and Queens with French ,Dutch, German background, which is all incorporated into English monarchial history.

      The Roman empire has disappeared gone whereas China has been acknowleded as the worlds longest continual civilisation and they have never relinquished their sovereignty or links with
      Tibet.

      Chinas size today has been done through colonisation and military acquisition much like the good old USA whose founding fathers lived in the New England area.

  • John

    “The chinese have done the people a favour by introducing the 20th century to them and raised their life expectancy and living conditions and freeing them from religious mumbo jumbo.”

    And who are you to judge what’s best for Tibetans. Your reasoning sounds suspiciously like the justifications the Europeans gave for conquering Asia and Africa and “civilizing” them in the 19th and 20th century. The white man’s burden and all that….

    The point is that the Chinese have no rights to mess with whatever the Tibetans want to do with themselves.

    • sam dundas

      nd who are you to judge what’s best for Tibetans. Your reasoning sounds suspiciously like the justifications the Europeans gave for conquering Asia and Africa and “civilizing” them in the 19th and 20th century. The white man’s burden and all that….

      If one was aware of a fedual society in which a group of blanket wearing unemployed layabouts called monks and their hangers on were sexually and materially abusing the rest of the population, it would only be the proper thing to do something about it. the only ones opposed to modernisation are those with ulterior motives.
      by the way what gives the usa the right to invade Iraq and force an unwanted changes such as democracy upon them.

      The only way Tibet can truly be a part of China is if you held a free election in Tibet and the majority of the population elected to be in China.

      Which is what would happen as the majority of the population in Tibet are Han or would you rig the votes or deny them the vote, which is a fundamental human right.

      In New Zealand we have the right to vote,providing we have been a legal resident in the country. One does not have to be a citizen by naturalisation, or birth. So if we apply those rules of eligibility it would be a no contest.

  • John

    In an attempt to “civilize its citizens before the Beijing Olympics”, the Chinese Government has issued guidelines to improve public behavior forbiding spitting and urinating in public, clearing one’s throat loudly, littering, pushing and shoving, queue jumping, etc.

    Apparently, it’s quite common to see people urinating on streets. Some cities have “urination stations” on street corners that wrap around your waist. That way people won’t actually see your privates but can see your face and legs and hear the sound. This was considered a major improvement. Gross!!!! Someone who visited China was astonished to see a “Please do not defecate” sign posted inside an elevator.

    • Ma

      Dumbest thing I’ve read in a long time! There are no “urinary stations” on street corners in China. Who told you that (since you obviously never have been to China yourself)?

      I lived five years in China and I never saw any people urinate in the streets. The “someone” who visited China is lying (or, more likely, this “someone” doesn’t exist and you’re lying). Any idiot who is not completely bigotted will realize that there are no such signs in Chinese elevators. BTW, did you ever tried an elevator in a subway station in the US (or perhaps your village doesn’t have a subway)?

  • John

    “Phil, I am a United States Citizen. I was born here, as were my parents and grandparents. So I take umbrage at your insinuation that I am putting “Israel first.” Yes, I am also a Jew and feel a connection to the Jewish people and I support the right of Israel to exist. ”

    As an American, don’t you think that we might be better off it Israel never existed? We wouldn’t have to spend hundreds of billions of dollars in foreign aid to Israel every year, as if it were a poor starving country like Ethiopia. Not to mention the hundreds of billions of dollars we’ve spent fighting the Israeli enemies in the Middle East and the thousands of American troops who got killed in action in Iraq and Afghanistan. The U.S. State Department wouldn’t have to waste all that time and resources trying to “broker” a peace agreement in the Middle East. And best of all, we wouldn’t have to read it on the front page of the New York Times every time the Israeli prime minister farts!!

  • Tim R.

    “As an American, don’t you think that we might be better off it Israel never existed?”

    Yes, John we probably would. And we would be even more better off if Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Iran did not exist either. So whats your point?

    • Ma

      If Israel had never existed, Syria and Iran wouldn’t give a damn about the US.

  • John

    “Which is what would happen as the majority of the population in Tibet are Han or would you rig the votes or deny them the vote, which is a fundamental human right.”

    The ethnic makeup of Tibet is controversial so I’m not so sure if you can be so confident about the outcome. The official figures say 92.8% are Tibetans with just 6.1% the Han Chinese (see Wikipedia), but the Exile Tibetan Government says the Han actually outnumbers the Tibetans as a consequence of “demographic aggression” policy or encouragement of influx of the Han into Tibet.

    • sam dundas

      The ethnic makeup of Tibet is controversial so I’m not so sure if you can be so confident about the outcome. The official figures say 92.8% are Tibetans with just 6.1% the Han Chinese (see Wikipedia), but the Exile Tibetan Government says the Han actually outnumbers the Tibetans

      the Chinese split Tibet into three regions for administration purposes. Two have been absorbed into neighbouring provinces with a predominant Han population and the remaining part which is administerd on its own has a Tibetan majority.

  • John

    “by the way what gives the usa the right to invade Iraq and force an unwanted changes such as democracy upon them.”

    The U.S. had absolutely no right. The invasion could have been justified only in self-defense, meaning Iraq had WMD and was trying to sell it to terrorist groups intent on striking the U.S. Neither was true, of course.

  • Bill K.

    Sulplise!
    China is the most populous country in the world. This was off the coast of China, Chinese submarines can do what they want in their own waters. The US does not own the world.

    As far as China being a “threat”. Who is it a threat to? Most of China’s weapons systems are oriented towards a Defensive not Offensive strategy. China has no operational aircraft carriers and currently only possesses several long range Land Attack Cruise Missile platforms. Most of her Surface Fleet is designed to operate in her own waters and could not go more than 30 days in the open Sea/Ocean.

    Of course China is modernizing its capabilities. It would be insane for any Major Power to allow itself to fall behind the US in technology, this is inviting an attack, just look at Iraq. It is detrimental to national sovereignty to be a resource rich country and have a 3rd rate military. Yet China only spends like 0.3% of its GDP on the Military and most of her Economy is geared towards Consumer goods. The same is no longer true in the US where Consumer good production is dwindling while military oriented industrial programs are growing. Military spending also takes up a disturbingly large percentage of the Budget and GDP with costs now reaching into 10% of annual GDP just counting the war spending.

    China is a sleeping Dragon. Her Regular Army has only about 1.8 million troops in Active duty. This is like 0.13% of her population, they have no shortage of volunteers. China could theoretically mobilize 200 Million troops during a conflict. Now even a quarter of that number could easily occupy North America. The rest could be an Industrial workforce producing everything from Landing Ships to Strategic Bombers from Aircraft Carriers to fleets of Attack helicopters. Only a fool would push China into a conflict. China is not stupid, it has allies all over the planet. They wisely cultivate cooperation with investment instead of coercion, the favorite US tactic. In Pakistan the US may have bought Musharraf, but the Army staff are strong supporters of China. Throughout Africa and South America Chinese influence grows.

    Here China violated a rule of Sun Tzu, if strong feign weakness, China is showing off, this does not improve her strength.

  • SANDMAN

    like I SAID John americans are a racist bunch,they love guns and war,guess who’s in the front running for president,2 warmongers that if elected might have the war you want with china but for sure bomb Iran,westerns are the dirty ones not the chinese,chinatowns are in the west so they are dirty like you ,bath once a week,you never were in china buthead,when I was there the people were clean concidering the hard working people they are,you try working in a rice field bent over all day and then come tell me other wise,the government is not to good but look at Bush and his gang of killers,bomb bomb bomb and war is all he says,what kind od country is AMERICA,THE ONLY COUNTRY since W2 that has bomd and attact others for what tell me,to be dictator of the world,
    you must think every one is dirty but you,I bet you smell and have a dirty mind,don’t judge others till you been there so shut your ass for a mouth as you only wish you could be clean

  • John

    “As far as China being a “threat”. Who is it a threat to?”

    As I pointed out earlier, China is forcibly occupying terrorities that it does not have legitimate claim to, such as Manchuria, Inner Mongolia, and Tibet, against the wills of the inhabitants of these regions. All the so-called “autonomous administrative regions” in China do not belong to China. China has tried to occupy Vietnam and gave up only after a bloody war. It has engaged in armed conflicts with India. It has threatened Taiwan (which it again does not have claim to) with using military force, alhough Taiwan is a democratically governed country, the majority of whose inhabitants are not ethnic Han Chinese. China has clashed with Japan on the disputed islands (I forget their names). China is laying low because it is still weak but as its military becomes stronger, it will impose its will on its neighbors and other susceptible countries in an arbitrary fashion. China will try to manipulate and pressure other countries to oppose U.S. interests in the international arena and diminish its influence. The World according to the Chinese View will not be a pretty sight. Yes, Pax Americana has its faults, but can you imagine what kind of world it would be with China at the helm? I can only shudder.

  • John

    “Yet China only spends like 0.3% of its GDP on the Military and most of her Economy is geared towards Consumer goods.”

    It would be naive to believe the official statistics provided by the Chinese. Pretty much military expert operating outside China is convinced that those figures are grossly underestimated. China is in fact making aircraft carriers to expand the capabilities of its navy and has upgraded its fighter fleet to match the fighters operated by the U.S., Japanese, and South Korean forces. As I said, the scariest thing about China is the fact that nothing is transparent in China. Although the U.S. has taken harsh international criticisms for the pre-emptive invasion of Iraq, the harshest criticisms have come from the domestic sources, and the Republicans have already lost control of the Congress, and are quite likely to lose the Presidental election next year. The leaders in the U.S. are accountable to the populace. The Communist leaders in China are not accountable to anyone. They wipe out a few hundred protesters at Tiannenmen Square and go on just fine. They can invade any neighboring country and does not have to answer to anyone. Don’t you think that is scary? That a powerful totalitarian regime like China is getting stronger by the day?

    • Ma

      yeah, the rest of the world saw that “harsh criticism” in Bush’s second term landslide victory. And there is absolutely nothing “transparent” about military matters in the US. “Japanese fighter fleet”?!?! I don’t even know what to say to that… Get a history book!

  • John

    “China could theoretically mobilize 200 Million troops during a conflict. Now even a quarter of that number could easily occupy North America. The rest could be an Industrial workforce producing everything from Landing Ships to Strategic Bombers from Aircraft Carriers to fleets of Attack helicopters. Only a fool would push China into a conflict. China is not stupid, it has allies all over the planet.”

    How are you going to transport 200 million troops across the Pacific? It will have problem doing that even across the Taiwan strait.
    No, I don’t think China is a real threat to the U.S. mainland. It is a very real threat to Japan, Korea, Southeast Asia, India, Russia, and the Middle Eastern countries. These countries are vital to the U.S. economic and political interests (much more so than Israel will ever be, I might add) and it is important to maintain U.S. hegemony in Asia.

    If China and U.S. went to war today, the U.S. would win hands down, sorry. It will be that way for many decades. I’m just saying that we should keep it that way forever.

    I don’t think China has any allies. China may be feared, but it is not liked by anyone. Can you name a SINGLE country in the world where the Chinese are genuinely admired? I thought not.

  • John

    Sandman – I guess you must be a Chinese expat or a Chinese Australian. Otherwise why would anyone get so riled up about this? Everything that I said is true, you must admit. The Chinese government DID issue a guideline to civilize its citizens (You were saying how incredibly cultured they were, speaking French and German fluently, etc. but apparently they still haven’t learned some very basic manners). Chinatowns ARE dirty (by the way, there is a Chinatown in almost every major North American city, not just in the West, as well as in major European cities and Asian cities. They all share the same characteristic that I referred to). No, I was never in China but I do happen to know quite a bit about it, as you can tell. There are obviously pockets of wealth (enormous wealth, I might add) in China, and some sections of large, more cosmopolitan Chinese cities, such as Shanghai, may superficially resemble what you see in other developed nations. But you can’t just selectively take only the flashest parts of the country and the most elite segment of the population and claim that they represent the whole of China.

    • Ma

      John, you really seem to know almost nothing about China (or even life outside the US). Chinese restaurants IN THE US are often cheaper (typically takeout). Most other countries I’ve lived in (and I’ve lived in plenty of countries), Chinese restaurants are often fairly expensive and nice. The cheapest and dirties restaurants are almost always American-style hamburger joints (don’t worry, that doesn’t mean that Americans don’t take showers). One thing I did notice living in the US, is that almost no Americans wash their hands after they’ve been to the toilet. I also noticed that Americans really like to eat their food with their hands. I’m not lying, I have never been to a country were people happily walk out from a toilet without washing their hands straight into a BBQ restaurant…

      Basing a view on a nations bathing habits on Chinatowns in the US is (almost) too stupid to comment on. I lived in Chigago for five years. Chinatown there is on the southside (roughly between the 20th and 30th street). If you’ve ever visited southside Chicago, you’ll know that Chigago’s chinatown is the absolutely best thing that whole area has to offer. Same with LA. You want to see public urination, you’ll have to get into the slums SURROUNDING the LA Chinatown. THAT area truly stinks.

      You’re absolutely absurd remark that many Chinese don’t speak Mandarin is presumably based on your chinatown experiences as well. I’ve lived in China between 98-03, and I can assure you that pretty much everyone (except perhaps some people in Hong Kong) speaks perfectly fine Mandarin. Reason for this is that education and TV in the whole country is in Mandarin. You are much more likely to find an American who doesn’t speak English that you are finding a Chinese who doesn’t speak Mandarin. Obviously, the situation in your local chinatown is likely to be very different. Too bad you didn’t realize this before you blasted out your ignorance.

      An Olympic Games edict about no spitting and public urination? I’m not surprised. The Games is a huge thing for China and the whole country is extremely anxious to make sure that it becomes a success. There have been many edicts, plans, TV ads, etc. already, all of them designed to ensure a positive experience for foreingers and Chinese visiting the Games. My experience is that most of these schemes are about teaching Chinese people in service jobs various phrases in westerm languages and inform them about western habits. This is to accomodate people like John who haven’t travelled so much and expect everything to be exactly like back home. Presumably, the Chinese will learn that it’s perfectly normal for Americans to leave the restrooms without cleaning their hands for example. Again, the WHOLE country (including people who have never been to Beijing and certainly won’t go during the Games) are very anxious to make sure that the Games are successful. Don’t know why you find this so bad. I currently live in the UK. I WISH there was an edict here about public urination (and public vomiting)…

  • johnny

    yea, the chinese would lose a war with the US pretty easily.