Comments on: Been Wrong So Long It Looks Like Right to Me http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/07/been-wrong-so-long-it-looks-like-right-to-me/ Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:20:18 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Johanna Swaag http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/07/been-wrong-so-long-it-looks-like-right-to-me/comment-page-1/#comment-102870 Johanna Swaag Sun, 13 Jan 2008 11:16:20 +0000 http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/07/been-wrong-so-long-it-looks-like-right-to-me/#comment-102870 Even your sporting heroes are totally dishonest and in jail! Even your sporting heroes are totally dishonest and in jail!

]]> By: peace http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/07/been-wrong-so-long-it-looks-like-right-to-me/comment-page-1/#comment-98349 peace Wed, 09 Jan 2008 01:12:38 +0000 http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/07/been-wrong-so-long-it-looks-like-right-to-me/#comment-98349 I appreciate so much George Kurian reporting to us what he has heard is the voice on the street in Iraq. What I have learned from his comments and from anti-war.com staff is: Long live American Atheism. I appreciate so much George Kurian reporting to us what he has heard is the voice on the street in Iraq. What I have learned from his comments and from anti-war.com staff is: Long live American Atheism.

]]> By: George Kurian, India http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/07/been-wrong-so-long-it-looks-like-right-to-me/comment-page-1/#comment-97570 George Kurian, India Tue, 08 Jan 2008 08:41:17 +0000 http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/07/been-wrong-so-long-it-looks-like-right-to-me/#comment-97570 Most of the information about pre-occupation Iraq or the Iraq of Saddam Hussain that comes from Western media (including the BBC) is incorrect. The book "Baghdad Burning" by the woman blogger who calls herself Riverbend tells of the quality of the Iraqi intelligensia under Saddam. I have met others - Iraqi refugees and an Egyptian who worked in Iraq. All of them attest to the quality of the engineers, doctors and scientists of Iraq. There was free education for men and women, 24 hour water and electricity (quickly remedied after its disruption in the first war on Iraq by America) and a strictly observed distribution of essential food and clothing during sanctions. Saddam was secular. He had three Christian ministers in his cabinet. At the same time Saddam was a horrible dictator and would brook no opposition. He gaoled and tortured opponents. This was the reason why the distribution system worked very well. Yet Iraqis hated him. The present occupation was started for the purpose of establishing US bases in an oil rich region. The common opinion of the Arab street is that the Americans were goaded into this by the Israelis who could not stand the idea that an Arab nation could become technologically strong even if it were in the areas that were not nuclear. So the war was a method of achieving Israel's goals and American goals. The disinformation campaign is not restricted to the NY times and Kristol. It goes right across and includes so-called liberal media too. Medialens.com throws more light on all this. Most of the information about pre-occupation Iraq or the Iraq of Saddam Hussain that comes from Western media (including the BBC) is incorrect. The book “Baghdad Burning” by the woman blogger who calls herself Riverbend tells of the quality of the Iraqi intelligensia under Saddam. I have met others – Iraqi refugees and an Egyptian who worked in Iraq. All of them attest to the quality of the engineers, doctors and scientists of Iraq. There was free education for men and women, 24 hour water and electricity (quickly remedied after its disruption in the first war on Iraq by America) and a strictly observed distribution of essential food and clothing during sanctions. Saddam was secular. He had three Christian ministers in his cabinet. At the same time Saddam was a horrible dictator and would brook no opposition. He gaoled and tortured opponents. This was the reason why the distribution system worked very well. Yet Iraqis hated him.
The present occupation was started for the purpose of establishing US bases in an oil rich region. The common opinion of the Arab street is that the Americans were goaded into this by the Israelis who could not stand the idea that an Arab nation could become technologically strong even if it were in the areas that were not nuclear. So the war was a method of achieving Israel’s goals and American goals.
The disinformation campaign is not restricted to the NY times and Kristol. It goes right across and includes so-called liberal media too. Medialens.com throws more light on all this.

]]> By: peace http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/07/been-wrong-so-long-it-looks-like-right-to-me/comment-page-1/#comment-97516 peace Tue, 08 Jan 2008 07:35:18 +0000 http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/07/been-wrong-so-long-it-looks-like-right-to-me/#comment-97516 Breathtaking, indeed, Molly black. Much appreiated! Breathtaking, indeed, Molly black. Much appreiated!

]]> By: Cous Cous http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/07/been-wrong-so-long-it-looks-like-right-to-me/comment-page-1/#comment-97358 Cous Cous Tue, 08 Jan 2008 03:50:09 +0000 http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/07/been-wrong-so-long-it-looks-like-right-to-me/#comment-97358 I haven’t claimed that you support the occupation. I do claim that a depressing number of the articles on this site parrot shameful lies about Iraq that inadvertently (?) serve as war propaganda. All the gibberish about ancient sectarian hatreds preventing Iraqis from ever being able to live together peacefully (which they managed to do just fine before the invasion), “the surge” reducing violence, et cetera serve no other purpose but to get Americans to support prolonging the war – for humanitarian reasons of course. Since you’re apparently the editor, why can’t I find that Dahr Jamail article I linked to in your Dahr archives here? You usually run his stuff and it’s certainly very informative. I haven’t claimed that you support the occupation. I do claim that a depressing number of the articles on this site parrot shameful lies about Iraq that inadvertently (?) serve as war propaganda. All the gibberish about ancient sectarian hatreds preventing Iraqis from ever being able to live together peacefully (which they managed to do just fine before the invasion), “the surge” reducing violence, et cetera serve no other purpose but to get Americans to support prolonging the war – for humanitarian reasons of course.

Since you’re apparently the editor, why can’t I find that Dahr Jamail article I linked to in your Dahr archives here? You usually run his stuff and it’s certainly very informative.

]]> By: Cous Cous http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/07/been-wrong-so-long-it-looks-like-right-to-me/comment-page-1/#comment-97349 Cous Cous Tue, 08 Jan 2008 03:41:26 +0000 http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/07/been-wrong-so-long-it-looks-like-right-to-me/#comment-97349 Governments “persecute” anyone they dislike, just as every government has since time immemorial. This doesn’t change the fact that the Iraqi government was mainly Shia and that the cause of the violence, then and now, isn’t religious differences. <a href="http://www.antiwar.com/ips/fadhily.php?articleid=10860" rel="nofollow">Here’s another Antiwar.com article to make you happy</a>: <i>"I do not believe it is al-Qaeda any more," a woman weeping near the scene of the bombing told IPS. "I do not care any more, I am just losing my loved ones. The last explosion hit my husband, and now he is disabled, and this one took my son's life." She referred to a similar bombing two-and-a-half months ago at the same market that killed 137 and wounded many more. </i><b>U.S. leaders and Iraqi government officials again accused "terrorists and the Saddamists" of the bombing. But many people around Baghdad are blaming the occupation forces and the U.S.-backed Iraqi government.</b><i> "I noticed that security officers did not carry out any site investigation," a former police officer who lives in a neighboring area told IPS, speaking on the condition of anonymity. "I have also noticed that no such crime has been solved since the first days of the occupation."</i> Governments “persecute” anyone they dislike, just as every government has since time immemorial. This doesn’t change the fact that the Iraqi government was mainly Shia and that the cause of the violence, then and now, isn’t religious differences.

Here’s another Antiwar.com article to make you happy: “I do not believe it is al-Qaeda any more,” a woman weeping near the scene of the bombing told IPS. “I do not care any more, I am just losing my loved ones. The last explosion hit my husband, and now he is disabled, and this one took my son’s life.”

She referred to a similar bombing two-and-a-half months ago at the same market that killed 137 and wounded many more.

U.S. leaders and Iraqi government officials again accused “terrorists and the Saddamists” of the bombing. But many people around Baghdad are blaming the occupation forces and the U.S.-backed Iraqi government.

“I noticed that security officers did not carry out any site investigation,” a former police officer who lives in a neighboring area told IPS, speaking on the condition of anonymity. “I have also noticed that no such crime has been solved since the first days of the occupation.”

]]> By: Matt Barganier http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/07/been-wrong-so-long-it-looks-like-right-to-me/comment-page-1/#comment-97322 Matt Barganier Tue, 08 Jan 2008 03:09:49 +0000 http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/07/been-wrong-so-long-it-looks-like-right-to-me/#comment-97322 Don't be obtuse. The Juan Cole quote was simply a statement of rather uncontroversial historical facts, so your opinion of Cole is irrelevant. Or did you read on Uruknet that Saddam didn't <a href="http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/religion-shia-baath.htm" rel="nofollow">persecute Shi'ites</a>? Again, no one here said that Shi'ite-Sunni civil war was inevitable or that all Sunnis hated all Shi'ites (or vice versa) or even that life for most Iraqis was worse under Saddam. It's simply worth noting, among Kristol's other assertions and prognostications, his absolute certainty that everything would be hunky-dory after the U.S. invasion turned previous power relationships on their head. Hell, before the war, hawks like Kristol made a point of emphasizing the persecution of Shi'ites under Saddam -- it was clearly dishonest and/or stupid of Kristol to dismiss any warnings that SOME Iraqi Shi'ites might be a bit peeved. Don’t be obtuse. The Juan Cole quote was simply a statement of rather uncontroversial historical facts, so your opinion of Cole is irrelevant. Or did you read on Uruknet that Saddam didn’t persecute Shi’ites?

Again, no one here said that Shi’ite-Sunni civil war was inevitable or that all Sunnis hated all Shi’ites (or vice versa) or even that life for most Iraqis was worse under Saddam. It’s simply worth noting, among Kristol’s other assertions and prognostications, his absolute certainty that everything would be hunky-dory after the U.S. invasion turned previous power relationships on their head. Hell, before the war, hawks like Kristol made a point of emphasizing the persecution of Shi’ites under Saddam — it was clearly dishonest and/or stupid of Kristol to dismiss any warnings that SOME Iraqi Shi’ites might be a bit peeved.

]]> By: Matt Barganier http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/07/been-wrong-so-long-it-looks-like-right-to-me/comment-page-1/#comment-97309 Matt Barganier Tue, 08 Jan 2008 02:55:36 +0000 http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/07/been-wrong-so-long-it-looks-like-right-to-me/#comment-97309 <i>The irony derives from the article in question being contradictory to the daily avalanche of ‘Iraq is undergoing a sectarian civil war which will turn into a bloodbath if America ever stops murdering, torturing, and ethnically cleansing millions of people’ stories here.</i> Antiwar.com has been calling for an immediate pullout since day one, so thanks for clarifying that you don't actually read the site. The irony derives from the article in question being contradictory to the daily avalanche of ‘Iraq is undergoing a sectarian civil war which will turn into a bloodbath if America ever stops murdering, torturing, and ethnically cleansing millions of people’ stories here.

Antiwar.com has been calling for an immediate pullout since day one, so thanks for clarifying that you don’t actually read the site.

]]> By: Cous Cous http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/07/been-wrong-so-long-it-looks-like-right-to-me/comment-page-1/#comment-97301 Cous Cous Tue, 08 Jan 2008 02:35:44 +0000 http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/07/been-wrong-so-long-it-looks-like-right-to-me/#comment-97301 The irony derives from the article in question being contradictory to the daily avalanche of ‘Iraq is undergoing a sectarian civil war which will turn into a bloodbath if America ever stops murdering, torturing, and ethnically cleansing millions of people’ stories here. Here’s an excerpt from a great article by Dahr Jamail which I can’t find on your site. <a href="http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m39851&hd=&size=1&l=e" rel="nofollow">The myth of sectarianism - The policy is divide to rule</a>: <i>It may be worthwhile to consider that prior to the Anglo-American invasion and occupation of Iraq there had never been open warfare between the two groups and certainly not a civil war. In terms of organization and convention, Iraqis are a tribal society and some of the largest tribes in the country comprise Sunni and Shia. Intermarriages between the two sects are not uncommon either. Soon after arriving in Iraq in November 2003, I learned that it was considered rude and socially graceless to enquire after an individual’s sect. If in ignorance or under compulsion I did pose the question the most common answer I would receive was, "I am Muslim, and I am Iraqi." On occasion there were more telling responses like the one I received from an older woman, "My mother is a Shia and my father a Sunni, so can you tell which half of me is which?" The accompanying smile said it all. Large mixed neighborhoods were the norm in Baghdad. Sunni and Shia prayed in one another’s mosques.</i> As the rest of the article makes clear, the reason it has changed is because the “Americans thought they would decrease the resistance attacks by separating the people of Iraq into sects and tribes”. The irony derives from the article in question being contradictory to the daily avalanche of ‘Iraq is undergoing a sectarian civil war which will turn into a bloodbath if America ever stops murdering, torturing, and ethnically cleansing millions of people’ stories here.

Here’s an excerpt from a great article by Dahr Jamail which I can’t find on your site. The myth of sectarianism – The policy is divide to rule: It may be worthwhile to consider that prior to the Anglo-American invasion and occupation of Iraq there had never been open warfare between the two groups and certainly not a civil war. In terms of organization and convention, Iraqis are a tribal society and some of the largest tribes in the country comprise Sunni and Shia. Intermarriages between the two sects are not uncommon either.

Soon after arriving in Iraq in November 2003, I learned that it was considered rude and socially graceless to enquire after an individual’s sect. If in ignorance or under compulsion I did pose the question the most common answer I would receive was, “I am Muslim, and I am Iraqi.” On occasion there were more telling responses like the one I received from an older woman, “My mother is a Shia and my father a Sunni, so can you tell which half of me is which?” The accompanying smile said it all.

Large mixed neighborhoods were the norm in Baghdad. Sunni and Shia prayed in one another’s mosques. As the rest of the article makes clear, the reason it has changed is because the “Americans thought they would decrease the resistance attacks by separating the people of Iraq into sects and tribes”.

]]> By: Cous Cous http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/07/been-wrong-so-long-it-looks-like-right-to-me/comment-page-1/#comment-97273 Cous Cous Tue, 08 Jan 2008 02:08:37 +0000 http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/07/been-wrong-so-long-it-looks-like-right-to-me/#comment-97273 I haven’t read Juan Cole since 2004, when he was tying himself into knots trying to maintain the pretense of being antiwar while openly supporting a pro-war candidate. Anyway, I’m not sure how a mainly Shia Baath Party cracking down on the political activity of mainly Shia Iraqis is explicitly about religion. Perhaps a conflict between secularism and pietism, but it has nothing to do with the Sunni/Shia nonsense that dominates the American media. As for the composition of the Baath party, here’s <a href="http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Riverbend</a> from December 2006: <i>“Through the constant insistence of American war propaganda, Saddam is now representative of all Sunni Arabs (never mind most of his government were Shia).”</i> I’ve seen Baathist communiqués on Uruknet that claim they were about 60% Shia, like the country itself. I’ll look for a link if you actually care about this. I haven’t read Juan Cole since 2004, when he was tying himself into knots trying to maintain the pretense of being antiwar while openly supporting a pro-war candidate. Anyway, I’m not sure how a mainly Shia Baath Party cracking down on the political activity of mainly Shia Iraqis is explicitly about religion. Perhaps a conflict between secularism and pietism, but it has nothing to do with the Sunni/Shia nonsense that dominates the American media.

As for the composition of the Baath party, here’s Riverbend from December 2006: “Through the constant insistence of American war propaganda, Saddam is now representative of all Sunni Arabs (never mind most of his government were Shia).” I’ve seen Baathist communiqués on Uruknet that claim they were about 60% Shia, like the country itself. I’ll look for a link if you actually care about this.

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