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Gjerstad supposed Cimon, even as he was in effect a Persian admiral, later to have attempted a marriage alliance toward securing Syracuse as a counterweight to Persia.

But I think that is Gjerstad’s fantasy.

Pyrrhus, however, was clearly trying to win a western empire, the resources of which he would then use in the East.

Pyrrhus in Italy has echos.

But no, Nicias looks brilliant compared to Bush.

Where is our Alcibiades? I’ll even take Cleon, hehe.

I see what you mean though.

Most westerners, including Americans, are tempted to identify themselves with the Greeks in the war with the Persians, at least partly because they trace, or have been trained to trace, their supposed democratic institutions to Athens.

There is an irony in this only those learned about the ancient Greeks and Persians will follow.

As the United States, for example, becomes more of a centralized bureaucratic state, with an autocratic executive, there is less likeness to any ancient Greek polis, small and ferociously idiosyncratic, than to the Persian Empire, centralized, autocratic, and hierarchical.

I was just pointing out to Tim that 2500 years ago it was the Persian Empire who were the Superpower and the Europeans were the “backward religious fundamentalists” who believed deities on Mount Olympus controlled their lives. A role reversal of sorts. And who won, the Superpower or the Greek city states. Tim needs to know some history to answer this.

But a repeat of Salamis in the Hormuz is possible. The Persian commanders made many tactical errors assuming they were superior and foolishly divided their forces and fell into a trap. In the Hormuz there is an island called Qeshm that serves no major purpose other than a good place to attack a fleet from.

As far as “300″, I took that movie with several packages of salt.

They only have 4 of those precious subs. And likely each Trident missile only has 1 warhead because they have fewer than 200 nuclear weapons total! They can’t put their whole arsenal on 1 sub, think about it. They also have air dropped bombs which have “bicycle lock” keys which were a recent joke on British media. Besides, they are not very bright when it comes to their Arsenal. Much of the Nuclear delivery system revolves around an American made missile that has compatibility issues as recently reported.

The French have the SAME amount of SSBN subs. And they also have a more capable Aircraft Carrier design, which puts them ahead of the UK. Not to mention Russia has 3 times more SSBN subs than the UK. My point still stands, they are not in the top 3.

Because like I said before, their Surface fleet is greatly lacking in firepower. A British Type 42 Guided Missile Destroyer is not compatible with a US Arleigh Burke class Guided Missile Destroyer, not even close. And numbers wise and firepower, the Chinese are getting a more modern fleet.

The epitaph by Simonides on his tomb still chills:

Ώ ξειν’, ἀγγέλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ότι τήδε κείμεθα, τοις κείνων ρήμασι πειθόμενοι

“Oh, stranger, go tell the Lacedaimonians–
we lie here obeying their orders.”

[my translation]

These two lines are, in my judgment, some of the greatest lines of poetry ever composed in ancient Greek, or any other language.

Some subtilties that are seldom mentioned: the stranger, or passerby, is distanced from who lies there, and whom he is told to herald, and “obeying” in the present participle those who lie there still live, though dead.

In lying (keimetha) the Spartiates still hold their ground.