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	<title>Comments on: Michigan And The War</title>
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		<title>By: justaguy</title>
		<link>http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/14/michigan-and-the-war/comment-page-1/#comment-107505</link>
		<dc:creator>justaguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2008 02:58:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/14/michigan-and-the-war/#comment-107505</guid>
		<description>Hmmm, well those Scandinavian socialist nations with well regulated mixed economies seem to be doing OK thanks very much. They top pretty much all the important economic/social indicators pretty much all of the time.

There are aspects of economies that government is far more efficient at allocating. The trick is, in my view, to keep commerce out of government and vice versa.

This is where the Scandinavian model has worked so well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm, well those Scandinavian socialist nations with well regulated mixed economies seem to be doing OK thanks very much. They top pretty much all the important economic/social indicators pretty much all of the time.</p>
<p>There are aspects of economies that government is far more efficient at allocating. The trick is, in my view, to keep commerce out of government and vice versa.</p>
<p>This is where the Scandinavian model has worked so well.</p>
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		<title>By: timmy ramone</title>
		<link>http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/14/michigan-and-the-war/comment-page-1/#comment-107354</link>
		<dc:creator>timmy ramone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2008 19:42:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/14/michigan-and-the-war/#comment-107354</guid>
		<description>The msm is not the &quot;root of all evil in this country,&quot; but it is certainly part of the problem.

And I don&#039;t think people are stupid, but they&#039;re definitely ignorant and ill-informed.  What else could explain the sorry pack of losers on both sides currently leading the race for U.S. President?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The msm is not the &#8220;root of all evil in this country,&#8221; but it is certainly part of the problem.</p>
<p>And I don&#8217;t think people are stupid, but they&#8217;re definitely ignorant and ill-informed.  What else could explain the sorry pack of losers on both sides currently leading the race for U.S. President?</p>
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		<title>By: Stan D. Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/14/michigan-and-the-war/comment-page-1/#comment-107321</link>
		<dc:creator>Stan D. Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:18:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/14/michigan-and-the-war/#comment-107321</guid>
		<description>That my neighbors have been deceived by the main stream media (MSM) is probably true. Your scorn may be justified. But cultures across America are falling into the collective unconscious when enticed, cajoled or commanded by media manipulators. Even though talking to those so affected often leaves me thinking that they wanted me to “shut up” I am not willing demonize them or even call them names. Those media already have cast me as their enemy, I intend to prove them wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That my neighbors have been deceived by the main stream media (MSM) is probably true. Your scorn may be justified. But cultures across America are falling into the collective unconscious when enticed, cajoled or commanded by media manipulators. Even though talking to those so affected often leaves me thinking that they wanted me to “shut up” I am not willing demonize them or even call them names. Those media already have cast me as their enemy, I intend to prove them wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: joe</title>
		<link>http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/14/michigan-and-the-war/comment-page-1/#comment-107320</link>
		<dc:creator>joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:16:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/14/michigan-and-the-war/#comment-107320</guid>
		<description>AMEN BROTHER .  the MSM in this country is nothing more than what pravda used to be. take a look at what passes for &quot;Conserative talk radio hosts&quot; these days . rush limbaugh , sean hannity , marc levin. and the masses keep on falling for it and wonder why it is that things dont change.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AMEN BROTHER .  the MSM in this country is nothing more than what pravda used to be. take a look at what passes for &#8220;Conserative talk radio hosts&#8221; these days . rush limbaugh , sean hannity , marc levin. and the masses keep on falling for it and wonder why it is that things dont change.</p>
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		<title>By: Kenneth</title>
		<link>http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/14/michigan-and-the-war/comment-page-1/#comment-107028</link>
		<dc:creator>Kenneth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2008 05:11:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/14/michigan-and-the-war/#comment-107028</guid>
		<description>Since their are so many similarities, why not enumerate some?  Indeed, what about the peculiar parallels readily uncovered between libertarianism and communism?  Such as, for instance, an extreme emphasis on ideological purity?  Vilification of political opponents?  Assorted arguments from intimidation and various other forms of intellectual bullying?  Imagining that feigned outrage and various genetic fallacies obviate the need for substantive, rational argument? You are certainly guilty of these, if I&#039;m correct at presuming you to be some kind of libertarian, which, judging by the tone and tenor of your shallow excuse for an argument, you almost certainly are.

&quot;And how compassionate of you to refer to both mass murders as social experiments.&quot;

Experiment is a neutral term that doesn&#039;t obscure the underlying reality.  Experiments can be cruel or benign.  There is simply no other way to describe any concerted effort at radical social change, whether for good or for ill.  Why not enlighten us on the nature of the &quot;experiment&quot; that occurred in Chile sometime between 1973 and 1989?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since their are so many similarities, why not enumerate some?  Indeed, what about the peculiar parallels readily uncovered between libertarianism and communism?  Such as, for instance, an extreme emphasis on ideological purity?  Vilification of political opponents?  Assorted arguments from intimidation and various other forms of intellectual bullying?  Imagining that feigned outrage and various genetic fallacies obviate the need for substantive, rational argument? You are certainly guilty of these, if I&#8217;m correct at presuming you to be some kind of libertarian, which, judging by the tone and tenor of your shallow excuse for an argument, you almost certainly are.</p>
<p>&#8220;And how compassionate of you to refer to both mass murders as social experiments.&#8221;</p>
<p>Experiment is a neutral term that doesn&#8217;t obscure the underlying reality.  Experiments can be cruel or benign.  There is simply no other way to describe any concerted effort at radical social change, whether for good or for ill.  Why not enlighten us on the nature of the &#8220;experiment&#8221; that occurred in Chile sometime between 1973 and 1989?</p>
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		<title>By: thought criminal</title>
		<link>http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/14/michigan-and-the-war/comment-page-1/#comment-107007</link>
		<dc:creator>thought criminal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2008 04:16:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/14/michigan-and-the-war/#comment-107007</guid>
		<description>I recommend you get to work on your intellectual laziness.  Start by reading some of professor Kevin McDonald&#039;s work.  The similarities and motives are far from rhetorical and the guilt is enormous on a stand alone basis.  And how compassionate of you to refer to both mass murders as social experiments.  Perhaps you could be roused from your shallow pseudo-intellectual posing by being on the receiving end of such an experiment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recommend you get to work on your intellectual laziness.  Start by reading some of professor Kevin McDonald&#8217;s work.  The similarities and motives are far from rhetorical and the guilt is enormous on a stand alone basis.  And how compassionate of you to refer to both mass murders as social experiments.  Perhaps you could be roused from your shallow pseudo-intellectual posing by being on the receiving end of such an experiment.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/14/michigan-and-the-war/comment-page-1/#comment-106987</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2008 03:37:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/14/michigan-and-the-war/#comment-106987</guid>
		<description>True Communism has never been realized, as the corruption of man has made it impossible. When Lenin and the Bolsheviks tried to implement it, it failed as the professional class(doctors, lawyers, etc) pretty much rebelled so he came out with the NEP in the mid 20&#039;s to get them on board. US foreign aid helped alot also!!! Didn&#039;t necessarily pay them more, but gave them access to stuff the average worker never would have dreamed of. Read Hedrick Smith&#039;s &quot;The Russians&quot;. The Soviet elite had their own gated communities, etc. Doesn&#039;t sound too far off from our elites here today. It is human nature to want more or keep up with the jones&#039; if you will.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>True Communism has never been realized, as the corruption of man has made it impossible. When Lenin and the Bolsheviks tried to implement it, it failed as the professional class(doctors, lawyers, etc) pretty much rebelled so he came out with the NEP in the mid 20&#8217;s to get them on board. US foreign aid helped alot also!!! Didn&#8217;t necessarily pay them more, but gave them access to stuff the average worker never would have dreamed of. Read Hedrick Smith&#8217;s &#8220;The Russians&#8221;. The Soviet elite had their own gated communities, etc. Doesn&#8217;t sound too far off from our elites here today. It is human nature to want more or keep up with the jones&#8217; if you will.</p>
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		<title>By: Buzzman</title>
		<link>http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/14/michigan-and-the-war/comment-page-1/#comment-106916</link>
		<dc:creator>Buzzman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2008 01:05:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/14/michigan-and-the-war/#comment-106916</guid>
		<description>We are seeing a replacement of democracy with clandestine Nationalism.  I fought the Cold War thru the Intelligence Wars during the Cold War.  I learned there was no threat of Communism just as there is no threat of Al Qaeda.  These Grendals are created by those institutions in power to guarantee their own job security.  Does a general want peace?  Does a policeman want crime to end? Does Northrup Grumman want an end to war?  Does the DEA want the shipment of drugs to totally be conquered?  No.  They would lose their jobs or at least major cut backs.  Plus the DEA is to guarantee the price of drugs is high so the military machine can fund its black projects.  

Most importantly, does the US and Britain want to see a united Mideast? No. Peace is not in the Middle East because Israel and the US does not want Mideast unification.  We can&#039;t see the forest for the trees -- and THAT is the secret of propaganda.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We are seeing a replacement of democracy with clandestine Nationalism.  I fought the Cold War thru the Intelligence Wars during the Cold War.  I learned there was no threat of Communism just as there is no threat of Al Qaeda.  These Grendals are created by those institutions in power to guarantee their own job security.  Does a general want peace?  Does a policeman want crime to end? Does Northrup Grumman want an end to war?  Does the DEA want the shipment of drugs to totally be conquered?  No.  They would lose their jobs or at least major cut backs.  Plus the DEA is to guarantee the price of drugs is high so the military machine can fund its black projects.  </p>
<p>Most importantly, does the US and Britain want to see a united Mideast? No. Peace is not in the Middle East because Israel and the US does not want Mideast unification.  We can&#8217;t see the forest for the trees &#8212; and THAT is the secret of propaganda.</p>
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		<title>By: Kenneth</title>
		<link>http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/14/michigan-and-the-war/comment-page-1/#comment-106890</link>
		<dc:creator>Kenneth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 23:57:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/14/michigan-and-the-war/#comment-106890</guid>
		<description>Correction:  I meant to say that unemployment rates were considerably lower in both Europe and America during the postwar boom than they are now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Correction:  I meant to say that unemployment rates were considerably lower in both Europe and America during the postwar boom than they are now.</p>
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		<title>By: Kenneth</title>
		<link>http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/14/michigan-and-the-war/comment-page-1/#comment-106846</link>
		<dc:creator>Kenneth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 22:41:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/14/michigan-and-the-war/#comment-106846</guid>
		<description>I fully agree with you on the issue of corporate personhood- it is a legal fiction whose continued existence baffles me.  On the other hand:

&lt;i&gt;Your overall point is well made, especially your comment about full employment. There are a number of national policies which preclude full employment, or anything remotely close to it. Central banking policies. Tax policies. Immigration policies. Some of the primary culprits.&lt;/i&gt;

A brief foray into history would indicate otherwise.  American capitalism was given to frequent and wild gyrations long before the institution of the income tax, the corporate tax, and the central bank.  The Long Depression, a twenty year global downturn, unfolded during the height of classical &lt;i&gt;laissez-faire&lt;/i&gt;.  Note, as well, that unemployment rates in both Europe and America were considerably lower than they are now, despite the increase in labour market flexibility in the latter (and certain countries, such as Britain, in the former) in the wake of stagflation.  Unemployment seems to me a structural outcome of capitalism, since any undue increase in the bargaining position of labour hampers profitability and hence continued investment.  I suspect this is because the state no longer mediates conflicts between business and labour effectively via domesticated labour unions (enabling a stable consensus that combines low unemployment with stipulated wage increases that do not impinge upon the rate of return), and so the market naturally generates less-than-full employment as a requirement for capital&#039;s profitability.   My other points about the technical and institutional conditions prevailing in industry still apply as well.  What of monopoly, of market power, of vast resources and command over credit and inputs that, even under a regime of unlimited liability, would still suffice to overwhelm most newcomers to the market?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I fully agree with you on the issue of corporate personhood- it is a legal fiction whose continued existence baffles me.  On the other hand:</p>
<p><i>Your overall point is well made, especially your comment about full employment. There are a number of national policies which preclude full employment, or anything remotely close to it. Central banking policies. Tax policies. Immigration policies. Some of the primary culprits.</i></p>
<p>A brief foray into history would indicate otherwise.  American capitalism was given to frequent and wild gyrations long before the institution of the income tax, the corporate tax, and the central bank.  The Long Depression, a twenty year global downturn, unfolded during the height of classical <i>laissez-faire</i>.  Note, as well, that unemployment rates in both Europe and America were considerably lower than they are now, despite the increase in labour market flexibility in the latter (and certain countries, such as Britain, in the former) in the wake of stagflation.  Unemployment seems to me a structural outcome of capitalism, since any undue increase in the bargaining position of labour hampers profitability and hence continued investment.  I suspect this is because the state no longer mediates conflicts between business and labour effectively via domesticated labour unions (enabling a stable consensus that combines low unemployment with stipulated wage increases that do not impinge upon the rate of return), and so the market naturally generates less-than-full employment as a requirement for capital&#8217;s profitability.   My other points about the technical and institutional conditions prevailing in industry still apply as well.  What of monopoly, of market power, of vast resources and command over credit and inputs that, even under a regime of unlimited liability, would still suffice to overwhelm most newcomers to the market?</p>
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		<title>By: Kirk</title>
		<link>http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/14/michigan-and-the-war/comment-page-1/#comment-106739</link>
		<dc:creator>Kirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 19:18:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/14/michigan-and-the-war/#comment-106739</guid>
		<description>Kenneth, see my response at bottom of page.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kenneth, see my response at bottom of page.</p>
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		<title>By: Kirk</title>
		<link>http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/14/michigan-and-the-war/comment-page-1/#comment-106706</link>
		<dc:creator>Kirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 18:07:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/01/14/michigan-and-the-war/#comment-106706</guid>
		<description>In reponse to Kenneth&#039;s posts above (the &quot;inevitability&quot; of corporatism and the question of how to vitiate unchecked private power):

[A couple of my earlier responses aren&#039;t showing up, so I&#039;m still figuring out the nesting limitations.  Third times a charm.]

Corporatism is only &quot;inevitable&quot; as you put it in the sense that any political system, regardless of whatever &quot;ism&quot; banner you are flying, is corruptible.  It may be that the problems posed by the human condition are inherently insoluble over the long run.  I think the best that you can do is put some reasonable checks and balances in place so that both the public and private spheres are kept in check.  A little revolution now and then doesn&#039;t hurt.

The root of corporatism lies in the legal fiction known as &quot;corporate personhood&quot;, which came about in the late 19th century, whereby corporations were granted the status of natural persons under the constitution and given all of the rights that go along with that status that were only ever meant to apply to natural persons.  Rights such as the right of representation before congress (read the right to bribe politicians) for example.  Or the right to free speech (read the right to act as a propaganda organ on behalf of the state and private concentrations of wealth with conflicts of interest).  As if a transnational conglomerate with revenues that exceed that of most countries is the equivalent of a human being.

Before the Civil War--which destroyed state sovereignty (which folks like Jefferson saw as one of the most important bulwarks against state tyranny over the individual) and swept away the Republic of the founders--and the legal fiction of &quot;corporate personhood&quot; which followed closely on its heels, corporate charters at the individual state level entailed heavy restrictions on corporate behavior.  Once corporations bribed the state into granting them &quot;corporate personhood&quot;, they went to court armed with their new &quot;constitutional rights&quot; and effectively overturned all of the restrictions that the individual states had placed on their behavior.  

Reform starts with the recognition that corporations are not people.  They are not even market entities for that matter.  They are collectives premised on state power.  Their defining characteristic is limited liability, which is, like their &quot;personhood&quot; status, a state-proffered advantage.  Corporate personhood and limited liability need to be done away with.

Your overall point is well made, especially your comment about full employment.  There are a number of national policies which preclude full employment, or anything remotely close to it.  Central banking policies.  Tax policies.  Immigration policies.  Some of the primary culprits.  Even cultural changes that our society has undergone.  Once again, we see how the corporations and the state have colluded in bringing about such policies and changes to the culture.  Such policies can be reversed, but that is another discussion.

In the final analysis, while we should strive for meritocracy, equality of outcomes is a utopian pipedream.  Speaking only for myself, I’m not willing to sacrifice liberty on such utopian and ultimately ruinous pursuits.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reponse to Kenneth&#8217;s posts above (the &#8220;inevitability&#8221; of corporatism and the question of how to vitiate unchecked private power):</p>
<p>[A couple of my earlier responses aren't showing up, so I'm still figuring out the nesting limitations.  Third times a charm.]</p>
<p>Corporatism is only &#8220;inevitable&#8221; as you put it in the sense that any political system, regardless of whatever &#8220;ism&#8221; banner you are flying, is corruptible.  It may be that the problems posed by the human condition are inherently insoluble over the long run.  I think the best that you can do is put some reasonable checks and balances in place so that both the public and private spheres are kept in check.  A little revolution now and then doesn&#8217;t hurt.</p>
<p>The root of corporatism lies in the legal fiction known as &#8220;corporate personhood&#8221;, which came about in the late 19th century, whereby corporations were granted the status of natural persons under the constitution and given all of the rights that go along with that status that were only ever meant to apply to natural persons.  Rights such as the right of representation before congress (read the right to bribe politicians) for example.  Or the right to free speech (read the right to act as a propaganda organ on behalf of the state and private concentrations of wealth with conflicts of interest).  As if a transnational conglomerate with revenues that exceed that of most countries is the equivalent of a human being.</p>
<p>Before the Civil War&#8211;which destroyed state sovereignty (which folks like Jefferson saw as one of the most important bulwarks against state tyranny over the individual) and swept away the Republic of the founders&#8211;and the legal fiction of &#8220;corporate personhood&#8221; which followed closely on its heels, corporate charters at the individual state level entailed heavy restrictions on corporate behavior.  Once corporations bribed the state into granting them &#8220;corporate personhood&#8221;, they went to court armed with their new &#8220;constitutional rights&#8221; and effectively overturned all of the restrictions that the individual states had placed on their behavior.  </p>
<p>Reform starts with the recognition that corporations are not people.  They are not even market entities for that matter.  They are collectives premised on state power.  Their defining characteristic is limited liability, which is, like their &#8220;personhood&#8221; status, a state-proffered advantage.  Corporate personhood and limited liability need to be done away with.</p>
<p>Your overall point is well made, especially your comment about full employment.  There are a number of national policies which preclude full employment, or anything remotely close to it.  Central banking policies.  Tax policies.  Immigration policies.  Some of the primary culprits.  Even cultural changes that our society has undergone.  Once again, we see how the corporations and the state have colluded in bringing about such policies and changes to the culture.  Such policies can be reversed, but that is another discussion.</p>
<p>In the final analysis, while we should strive for meritocracy, equality of outcomes is a utopian pipedream.  Speaking only for myself, I’m not willing to sacrifice liberty on such utopian and ultimately ruinous pursuits.</p>
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