US Death Toll in Iraq Reaches 4,000
Today, when 4 more US soldiers are killed by an IED.
peaceMarch 23rd, 2008 at 7:23 pm
Real Americans need to refuse to deploy to go and fight in Iraq.
Steve HoganMarch 23rd, 2008 at 8:00 pm
Weapons of mass destruction! The new Hitler! Democracy in the Middle East! Global War on Terror! Kill ‘em there so they don’t kill us here….
Iraqis will shower us with flowers and candy. The war will be paid by oil money. It’ll be a cake walk. Mission accomplished.
Repeat after me: the surge is working. The surge is working.
On to Iran. Bombs away. Then Syria. North Korea? Pakistan? Invade the world. It’ll lead to peace.
John LowellMarch 23rd, 2008 at 8:12 pm
And nothing in these precincts ever in the abstract, every one of them someone’s son, husband or father. The imbecile enthusiasms that give rise to war in every age always parent its inevitable physical and spiritual desolation as well. We would do well to review the anti-war literature of the period between the World Wars, the Siegfried Sassoons, the Romain Rollands and the John Dos Passoses, to recover this personal aspect. Too much has been done by the Regime and its Goebbels-like media enablers to conceal precisely this reality for us to know it as it was then known commonly. With every day – now, even when it comes to the God given right to mourn – the system increasingly betrays how it perceives those it serves as enemies. Would that it be brought to its knees.
jackMarch 23rd, 2008 at 8:21 pm
Dos Passos is terrific and so was Erich Remarque.The country is bankrupt and still it never ends.
Auto DroneMarch 23rd, 2008 at 8:34 pm
Yawn. Who cares? And by the way, who was the latest contestant voted off American Idol again?
EricMarch 23rd, 2008 at 8:39 pm
Oh, but dear little Israel needs our soldiers to stay in Iraq indefinitely, and that’s all that really matters. Surely every one of those 4,000 American soldiers appreciated that Israel’s strategic goals are more important than whether a bunch of American 20-somethings’ get a chance to live out their stupid little un-Chosen lifespans.
AndyMarch 23rd, 2008 at 8:43 pm
Right on Steve. You said it brother.
AndyMarch 23rd, 2008 at 8:45 pm
How many more have to die before we get out of Iraq?
Eugene CostaMarch 23rd, 2008 at 8:50 pm
“Think, man, think of all the oceans of lies through all the ages that must have been necessary to make this possible! Think of this new particular vintage of lies that has been so industriously pumped out of the press and the pulpit. Doesn’t it stagger you?”
Martin nodded.
“Why, lies are like a sticky juice overspreading the world, a living, growing flypaper to catch and gum the wings of every human soul….And the little helpless buzzings of honest, liberal, kindly people, aren’t they like the thin little noise flies make when they’re caught?”
“I agree with you that the little thin noise is very silly,” said Martin.
[John Dos Passos]
Chris BakerMarch 23rd, 2008 at 9:40 pm
How many died in Vietnam before “we” got out?
The only way this war will end is if something big happens. By something big, I mean something on the magnitude of the World Trade Center happening in Iraq.
Michael G.r.March 23rd, 2008 at 9:43 pm
“By something big, I mean something on the magnitude of the World Trade Center happening in Iraq.”
It’s constantly happening… to local civilians
danMarch 23rd, 2008 at 10:19 pm
that’s about 1/250 of the number of Iraqis dead in this filthy murderous war crime started on a pack of lies in order to steal Iraq’s oil.
Bush and his co-conspirators off to the Hague immediately if not sooner.
Dick DaniMarch 23rd, 2008 at 10:39 pm
“There are neighborhoods in Baghdad where you and I could walk through those neighborhoods today.” –Sen John McCain, prior to visiting a Baghdad market while being flanked by 100 American soldiers, 10 armored Humvees, with three Blackhawk helicopters and two Apache gunships overhead.”
April 1,2007
Only another 95 years to go.
BobMarch 23rd, 2008 at 11:15 pm
“Real Americans need to refuse to deploy to go and fight in Iraq.”
If the people who founded this country were alive today they would be pointing their weapons at our government masters. They would have overthrown this piece of sh*t government long ago. I mean can you imagine Thomas Jefferson putting up with the lying criminals we have running this country today?
BobMarch 23rd, 2008 at 11:20 pm
I guess it’s a good thing that none of us today are like the people who founded this country.
JCMarch 24th, 2008 at 12:59 am
If you want a good laugh before you vomit, have a look at the Fox News (5 years into the “fight for freedom” or something like that) that I saw today am 24th March on satelite tv. I had to turn it off after about 30 minutes because the neighbours were were upset about my language. It commences along these lines. AFTER LIBERATING AFGANISTAN,…… we turned our attention to Iraq. WMD’S etc, etc. the funny/ironical thing was that as this ridiculous piece of Nazi crap was going to air, the Fox ticker at the bottom of the screen was commenting on fire fights with Taliban against Coalition forces, TODAY!! in Afganistan (24TH MARCH 2008)I think the score was Taliban nil,and the good guys 40. Of course the presenter was “good ole Oliver North” ( someone you can believe in of course!!) I feel for you “good” people in the states who want to change the Govt. and from “Oz”, many like minded, sensible, caring people like myself wish you success. Kick ‘em out!!!
EricMarch 24th, 2008 at 2:41 am
Oh dear, what an unpleasant number.
How can we distract the public?
Oh but of course — start a war against Iran!
And hey, that just happens to be exactly what Israel wants, too!
Isn’t it wonderful how their best interests and ours always turn out to be exactly the same?
NikeMarch 24th, 2008 at 4:24 am
Death is no fun, but the fact is that every single one of those US soldiers volunteered to join up, volunteered to be soldiers – unlike the people in the country they helped invade. One million Iraqis are dead – vs. a few thousand of the invader’s soldiers.
Cry me a river.
pauliteMarch 24th, 2008 at 5:42 am
Give me a break, Nike! They volunteered to fight for THIS country, which would be retaliating against bin Laden, not Iraq, which did nothing to the US.
They also volunteered thinking they wouldn’t be lied to, would only be on one tour of duty, not five away from their families.
They volunteered to uphold the Constiution and what it says, not what Bush wants “that gd piece of paper” to say.
4,000 deaths for a “cakewalk”. Time for happy feet Bush to do another tapdance in front of the White House waiting for the next warmonger to show up.
Time for Cheney to say, “So??” again.
Time for all the rest of us to cry.
John LowellMarch 24th, 2008 at 6:21 am
Outstanding.
Brad SmithMarch 24th, 2008 at 6:21 am
4,000? I doubt it. It’s probably twice that. The same government that lied us into this mess also control the numbers. It’s not that they care about the lives it’s that it is not good PR for the number to be high. They have plenty of ways of keeping it down.
1. Contractors don’t count.
2. Those who die out of Iraq don’t count.
3. CIA and some special units don’t count (security reasons) unless they want them to.
4. Suicides don’t count unless they are in Iraq at the time.
While I agree with the feeling that Joes should refuse to deploy, I don’t see that happening any time soon. Unless you have served I don’t think you will truly understand why. The brainwashing is intense, particularly in the combat units. It also comes from home. Too many Americans still believe our troops are heros instead of dupes who are being used in a murder for hire sceme.
My unit had six suicides in between deployments. They couldn’t face going back and couldn’t face the thought of going AWOL and the shame it would bring them and their families. Before Joes will start to desert in force it will take an overwhelming majority of Americans to support thier actions. It will also be interesting to see what will happen with Canada and if they will start allowing our troops to seek refuge in their country.
I personally support any soldier who wants out. If this is truly a volunteer force whay can’t they get out? Why stop loss them after their time is up? This happend to my etire unit during the first gulf war. Not exactly voluntarily either.
It seems to me that if we want the Joes to stop fighting we need to get the message out that it’s OK. We won’t call you coward or traitor or arrest you and scorn your family. (yah sure right, when pigs fly). No, unfortunalty we the people are not yet awake to the facts. Well not enough of us anyway.
Peace!
John LowellMarch 24th, 2008 at 6:29 am
While I agree with you in principle about the depravity of the present age, the choices of Jefferson’s as an alternative and Jefferson, a lying criminal himself, take one aback. You hadn’t known, clearly, of Jefferson’s hiring of a surrogate to smear John Adams. :-)
Carol WatsonMarch 24th, 2008 at 6:30 am
paulite, your reasoning doesn’t absolve those who volunteered in the last five years, AFTER we attacked Iraq. I have far less sympathy for them; they obviously knew what they were signing up to do. And they are still enlisting even today! You will notice the recruiters aren’t being laid off for lack of customers.
I do have some sympathy for the ‘National’ Guard which never expected to be trapped into fighting on the other side of the world. They are the closest we have to the original concept of a citizen militia.
pauliteMarch 24th, 2008 at 6:39 am
Ever hear of poor economy reasons for joining the service? Ever hear of needing money for college? How about it being the only way to support your family after losing a job to an overseas company? How about broken homes, due to the high divorce rate? How about the huge bonuses the government offers those who are recruited?
There are a lot of reasons for those joining up now. They aren’t bad people.
Brad SmithMarch 24th, 2008 at 6:50 am
I have little to no sympathy for the lifers in the military. They do know what they are doing and should be scorned for their actions. However, I think you would be shocked if you knew the extent that the Military will go to to both recruit and maintain enlistment. Recruiters still lie. Young people are still brainwashed and dumbed down by their public schooling. The economy is also used for recruitment. Can’t find a job or the money for college sign up we will take care of you.
Many Joes who wanted out were told that if they refused to re-up they would be stop lossed and sent to fight with a front line unit away from their fellow joes, friends (family) that they have come to depend on.
As for the National Guard I agree that they should not be sent overseas. I would have stayed in with the Guard if I didn’t know I would be deployed to fight overseas. Protecting our nation at home should be the only job of the National Guard. They will eventually destroy the Guard by missusing it. Numbers are down and the quality of the Joes in the Guard is also down.
One further thought. Why should we be allowing children to fight in the first place? These children are not mature enough to handle alcohol but we can give them a tank? We need to pass a law banning Recruitment of children under the age of 21.
AmryMarch 24th, 2008 at 8:03 am
With all due respect, I have little, if any, sympathy for the 4000 US dead.
First of all, let’s compare numbers; 4000 US soldiers vs. 60 000 (a conservative estimate) Iraqi civilian deaths. Perhaps along the way they might wipe out a large number of terrorists, criminals and whatnot, but I cannot in my heart justify that with the deaths of so many civilians. US soldiers do have a choice (even if refusal to serve will mean a court martial); the same cannot be said about the majority of the Iraqis. Hence, I do not believe that the US soldiers have the moral high ground, and I cannot give them the same level of sympathy as I give to the Iraqi civilians.
But let’s look at the “some of these new recruits are poor, the Army is the only way for them to feed themselves”. Is that really true? But since I don’t see illegal immigration from Mexico waning at any time period due to the lack of employment opportunities in the States, I just can’t buy that. Yes, flipping burgers or gardening may not be glamorous, but no one ever got killed by an IED in McDonalds (at least in the continental US). If America truly is the “land of opportunity”, I do not see how a military career is the only way you can remain financially solvent. If you would choose risking death over making minimum wage waiting tables, that’s fine with me; but you cannot expect me to sympathize with you because you made the choice.
But on a moral perspective, the potential Army recruits SHOULD know about the conditions in Iraq. They SHOULD know about the rights and wrongs being done in their name in Iraq (I for one do not buy the “dumb American stereotype”; in a country saturated by all sorts of media channels, I do believe that most Americans are actually quite well-informed). Therefore, if you think that the current occupation of Iraq is wrong, you SHOULD refuse to participate in it. Still joining the military because you’re poor while you know it’s wrong is like saying “I have to become a mafia hitman because my family are starving and I need the money”. Perhaps you have a justifiable goal, but you’re still a murderer. And I have no sympathy for murderers.
With that, I have a dream that one day the Americans and the Iraqis will be able to achieve mutual understanding, with each side respecting the other’s rights and sovereignties, and with the American troops withdrawing from Iraq in a dignified and most importantly, safe manner.
Paul BorowiczMarch 24th, 2008 at 8:09 am
There is little evidence that oil was the main reason we went into Iraq. The Israel lobby had a much greater affect in promoting the war–rather than the Oil lobby.
Brad SmithMarch 24th, 2008 at 8:31 am
This war was not started for the defense of our nation and therfore all the deaths should be considered murder. Not just the civilians but the members of Iraq’s military. They didn’t deserve to die any more than the civilians. However, who is the murderer. Is it some brainwashed child, or the commander and chief?
You have no sympathy for an 18 year old child who has been indoctrinated by a lifetime of propaganda. You don’t believe that a child can be manipulated. You believe that this child who has almost no clue about life or what war truly is can actually make an informed decision. You are wrong! Children are easily led. We are the people that have deceived them into believing that they are doing a good and just thing. You obviously are too far removed from what is actually going on with the youth of this country. No child under the age of 21 should be allowed to join the military. At one time we had men who where 18. That is simply not the case now. At least not for the vast majority. They have not gained the maturity or experience to be called men. Not in the US. anyway. No child should be allowed to join our military, and everyone should have sympathy for the children who have been led astray.
4000MyAssMarch 24th, 2008 at 8:43 am
I guess Nike hasn’t heard of the stop-loss program, i.e., the backdoor draft. Many U.S. soldiers have served past the time they were required to but are being illegally forced to keep serving.
Then there are the conscientious objectors, including those who have witnessed the wars firsthand, who are not being allowed to get out.
Many in the National Guard, if not most, signed on to help the states that they lived in, or any helpful action within the U.S. If they really wanted to join the military outright, they would have, wouldn’t they?
Speaking of the National Guard, I read an article in the SF Chronicle that quoted geophysicists on the probability that the Hayward fault, running underneath the SF bay area, will go off soon, and the amount of damage/ casualties will be staggering.
Here it is:
http://tinyurl.com/33ycee
Where will the CA /Oregon / Arizona/ Nevada National Guards be (with their equipment) be when this happens, or one of the hundreds of faults running underneath the Pacific plate become active?
Why in Iraq or ? (put next country to be attacked here) of course — fighting for Israel and the military industrial complex!
While thousands, if not tens of thousands of Californians / Oregonians, Washingtonians, etc., lie slowly rotting under the rubble, or thirsting to death, our National Guards will be off “spreading democracy” in Iraq/ Palestine / Lebanon/ Syria/ Iran, i.e., making the Middle East safer for Israel’s expansion and the war barons in this country immensely richer.
The war in Iraq was not about oil: oil companies will deal with any tyrant/ dictator / fascist criminal if he guarantees stability. The Middle East is much less stable as a result of UsRael’s invasion. Not that Israel provided the troops or money or anything…Well, except the propaganda.
4000MyAssMarch 24th, 2008 at 8:58 am
Sorry, I meant North American plate. And let’s add Alaska to the list of states in grave danger from earthquakes.
Also, The U.S. Geological Survey predicted a year-and-a-half ago that the San Andreas was likely to go off within five years (so within the next three years) at six hundred times the magnitude of the Northridge quake!
The movement could topple sky scrapers in downtown Los Angeles, and/or downtown San Diego depending on which way the fault breaks and the actual magnitude.
It would also cause significant damage in Phoenix, Vegas and all towns in between.
Again, where will our National Guards be???
If you live in these states: CA, AZ, OR, WA, Alaska call your congressional representatives and ask this question. Especially if you live in Arizona and can nail McCain.
Mention the SF Chronicle Gate article replete with statistics when they give you some BS about defending Israel “the only democracy in the Middle East” or “Al Qaeda in Iraq” or the “War on Terror” or stopping Iran from having a hypothetical nuclear weapon (without a delivery system even if it did, and without a clear intent of national suicide if Iran did indeed launch a nuclear war)
And even if you don’t live in an earthquake zone, a major earthquake in any of these states, but especially California, will put the final nail in the U.S. economic coffin. The sooner we get the states affected back on their feet, the sooner we can start rebuilding the U.S. economy.
But we need OUR National Guard for that.
JamesMarch 24th, 2008 at 9:23 am
If a lot of Americans thought like you Eric- The war would have never started. But they do not and so Americans will still die for Israel and those young American kids are to Stupid to know that!!!
liberranterMarch 24th, 2008 at 11:32 am
Not so much a question of how many more, but of what kind (or class). When we’ve run out of plebes and it’s time for the patrician class’s sons (and daughters) to suit up and go carry on the battle, only then will the powers-that-be start having serious second thoughts and consider calling a halt.
liberranterMarch 24th, 2008 at 11:35 am
Hiring a surrogate to smear one’s political opponent in the press is a very different thing from lying one’s country into an endless war in order to consolidate one’s power, something that Jefferson even at his most fallible and wayward would never have even considered.
Carol WatsonMarch 24th, 2008 at 11:39 am
I would not be shocked at all, Brad. During Gulf War I, my son was browbeaten into ‘volunteering’ for combat duty even though he was an only child and didn’t have to go. I watched it and raised hell about it to no avail before they shipped him out. This “well, if you don’t go then one of your buddies who has a wife and children will have to go in your place and therefore you will be responsible for making the guy’s wife a widow and their kids fatherless if anything bad happens to him.” That’s exactly what they used on my son and the rest who were exempt, and are probably using it for this war also. I’ve read of many “only-children” killed. They run a guilt trip on them. Not many 20-year-olds can stand up to that type of pressure.
danMarch 24th, 2008 at 11:40 am
little evidence? ever hear of Peak Oil? I guarantee you Cheney has. ever wonder why Cheney fiercely guarded the secrecy if his Energy Task Force meetings with the oil bigs before the war? ever wonder why no matter what happens, our “leaders” intend for us to stay there apparently forever and come up with new ludicrous “justifications” why we have to on a daily basis? ever wonder why we’re working desperately to shove this Oil Law down the Iraqis’ throats.
any of this ringing a bell?
I’ll grant our little apartheid BFF Israel and their agents in the US government wanted this war; nothing surprising there – they love nothing more than the mass slaughter of Arabs.
but Oil is the key. massive profits going to well-connected war profiteers as well as affording pretexts for Shrub and Shooter to wipe their butts with constitution is just gravy.
liberranterMarch 24th, 2008 at 11:46 am
I’m sure that by the time anything truly catastrophic occurs (i.e., in the very near future), a sufficiently large number of people will have sufficiently little faith in central authority that they will not count on ANY state-controlled apparatus to provide assistance, including the “National Guard [sic, a misnomer if ever there was one].” They will instead do what the denizens of Nawlins did in the immediate aftermath of Katrina once they realized that that Uncle Oaf was not only otherwise distracted, but ill-prepared to come to their rescue: they “rescued” themselves. There are many well-documented instances of the local folk using their own resources at hand, or those donated by private entities in short order, to provide rescue services and emergency supplies, shelter, and assistance. Had they waited for FEMA or the (deployed half a world away) Louisiana “National Guard”, they would have padded the already unacceptable statistics surrounding the post-storm death count.
The same will apply to the next natural (or government-fomented) disaster as well.
Carol WatsonMarch 24th, 2008 at 11:52 am
At one time we had men who where 18
That is absolutely true. Children today are not raised to take over adult responsibility for their own lives for many years more. Funny, back then the age we were considered adults was 21, yet we were men and women at 18. Today it is reversed, adulthood at 18 with even many 21-year-olds still protectively tucked under their parents’ wings.
danMarch 24th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
also, ever wonder the US military guarded the Oil Ministry while standing around nonchalantly watching the Iraqis loot everything else?
look, Iraq is “floating on a sea of oil” per leading conspirator Wolfowitz. world’s second largest proven oil reserves. easily accessible once you bring those pesky Iraqis to heel and murder or imprison any of them who object to foreign domination of their country.
oil’s the prize Cheney and his co-conspirators couldn’t wait to get their bloody hands on. they haven’t got it yet, but they’re dug in with permanent bases and a grotesquely large embassy from which to control our new client state. they’re pushing relentlessly to get the Oil Law passed. read up on the absurdly generous terms western bigs will get in that law. nothing else makes sense.
KennethMarch 24th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
http://www.carbonweb.org/documents/PSAs_privatisation.pdf
John LowellMarch 24th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
I wouldn’t know why the moral deficit involved in smearing one’s political opponents in the press should of necessity be distinguished from that of lying ones country into war which is what you presuppose here, of course. Are we to assume that once sullied in this way one is somehow more likely – or, perhaps, less – to experience a sense of restraint? If anything, I’d submit the outlandish ego required to do one would render doing the other just as easy. We’re dealing with politicians here, liberranter, not with latter-day incarnations of St. Francis of Assisi. And, in the case of Jefferson, someone not incapable of treating human beings as mere chattle, you’ll recall. Your loyalty – or your appraisal of historical personalities – would seem overly romanticized. Some balance, please.
yolandsvMarch 24th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
How will McSame fight his war in Iran without more troops?
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/32055
yolandsvMarch 24th, 2008 at 1:17 pm
What’s not working? Bush’s disastrous policies.
yolandsvMarch 24th, 2008 at 1:18 pm
Can the next president — Obama or Clinton — send Bush to Gitmo if he’s impeached?
Something to ponder.
yolandsvMarch 24th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
The Bushes are indifferent to the suffering of others. Obla-di, Obla-da, life goes on … for George and his mother:
http://www.airfarceone.net/lifegoeson.html
*
Brad SmithMarch 24th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
I know John you hate all politicians. However, smearing someone IS a far cry from the crimes that Bush has commited. If you can’t see the difference you must be blind.
Your belief that ALL politicians are evil has obviously warped your perceptions. No politicians are not saints, well guess what, saints are not perfect either. But I suppose you are, at least thats the impression one would get from reading your posts.
Know it alls often know less than the rest.
4000MyAssMarch 24th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
Oil as an excuse for raiding Iraq is a red herring.
We get most of our oil from Mexico and Canada. It would be a lot easier to send our military across those borders and seize their oil then expend what economists like Steiglitz are estimating as trillions of dollars to grab tapped-out oil reserves on the other side of the world.
The super-extra bonus – our invading soldiers could come home for the weekends ;-)
danMarch 24th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
right, invade Canada. that’s be an easy sell.
ok, for the slow learners in class, here’s a few quotes from Shooter himself:
Dick Cheney, speaking as CEO of Halliburton, 1999 [4]: “By 2010 we will need on the order of an additional fifty million barrels a day. So where is the oil going to come from?… While many regions of the world offer great oil opportunities, the Middle East with two thirds of the world’s oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies.”
Dick Cheney’s (as US Vice President) energy task force, 2001 [5]: “By any estimation, Middle East oil producers will remain central to world oil security. The Gulf will be a primary focus of US international energy policy.”
danMarch 24th, 2008 at 2:40 pm
link for those quotes and more: Labor Against War
the Legendary BillMarch 24th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
You should all be ashamed! We need to die to ensure Israeli security-that’s America’s new purpose! And without war and occupation how could the Anglo-American oil co.’s get their hands on what rightfully belongs to them! And how could all of our defense contractors rack-up big profits w/o endless war..Ooops, sorry..just goes to show you what watching Fox News for a 1/2 hr will do to you..
John LowellMarch 24th, 2008 at 8:59 pm
Well, Brad, we’d certainly have to say that the purely personal focus of your remarks would leave you entirely out of contention when adult argumentation otherwise might be sought on this question, eh? For your own sake, why not leave these smouldering resentments with some respected religious figure, a priest or minister, as in and of themselves they have no lasting significance, trust me. I mean do you really want to be saddled with that kind of garbage for any length of time? Just so you know, I’m not looking for the kind of fan boy that attaches at the hip in any case.
Tim R.March 24th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
Amry writes:
“With all due respect, I have little, if any, sympathy for the 4000 US dead”
Well, I have no respect, whatsoever, for you. And I believe you are due none. These young men and women had the desire to serve their country, to give something back, to do something for others. They wanted to live up to John F. Kennedy’s exhortation to “ask not what your country can do you for you, ask what you can do for your country.” Now, whether you agree with this war or not, you say you have little if any sympathy for for them? They are dead and their families are hurting, and I’m sure people like you add a lot of salt to the fresh wounds of their families. You are a very cold hearted and hateful person.
Tim R.March 24th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Question for Legendary Bill and others:
If we totally stopped all support of Israel, do you think the radical Islamic nutjobs will then stop trying to killing us? Stop hating us? Stop wanting to destroy western civilization? Did you hear Bin Laden’s most recent audio tape? (seems as though he doesn’t like the Pope too much and last I checked the Pope was not sending money or military supplies to Israel) Have you heard some of the other audiotapes? Maybe I am missing something here but did they not specifically say that there would only be true peace when we all converted to their bloody,err…I mean peaceful religion?
Brad SmithMarch 24th, 2008 at 10:06 pm
Sorry if I hurt your feelings John. It’s just that I have read enough of your crap to realize that your another one of the millions of blowhards that thinks an education is the same thing as inteligence.
If I had a dollar for every educated idiot in America I could retire today.
Paul BorowiczMarch 25th, 2008 at 4:54 am
@Dan
“The Israel Lobby” by Walt and Mearsheimer. On pages 142-146 the authors clearly document that there is little evidence that Oil lobby had any impact on the invasion of Iraq.
I do not deny that Oil companies profited from the Iraq war, like any good capitalist business, but they would have been just as happy to do business with Saddam himself.
BTW, that web site you posted, USLAW, promotes socialist ideology, which will only make life worse for middle class Americans.
danMarch 25th, 2008 at 6:43 am
but the US gov. forbid doing business with Saddam himself. he was our murderous thug for awhile but once he quit taking orders from us he had to go.
of course there’s little evidence. that’s because Cheney never let the little people (ya know, the public) know what the Energy Task Force was discussing with the oil bigs before this illegal war of aggression started.
but if you watch their actions and their intention to occupy Iraq permanently and understand the implications of Peak Oil and how Iraq has an incredible bounty of easily accessible oil, it all makes sense. got any other explanations besides our little mini-me Israel (whose actions and influence on our government I despise as much as anyone) made us do it?
John LowellMarch 25th, 2008 at 7:21 am
Oh, Brad, please don’t feel it necessary to explain yourself. Yours is just the ordinary variety of spiritual poison, nothing special, actually. If you’d feel embarrassed taking the matter up with a priest or minister, there’s always the possibility of strong emetics, you know. And, God knows, should all else fail, there’d always be a future out there for you as President of the American Association of Crap Reading, Uneducated Geniuses. And a fine president you’d make, I’m sure.
Paul BorowiczMarch 25th, 2008 at 9:39 am
These are all Straw Man arguments.
Saddam was a tyrant, but he was willing to sell as much oil as he could. It would have been easier and cheaper to get the UN to lift the sanctions and let the US petroleum industry into Iraq.
You and I do not have privy information to what went on in the Energy Task Force meetings. Being critical of the secrecy of the information is a valid argument, but making innuendo accusation makes your argument irrational. I find it difficult to imagine that Cheney discussed invading Iraq to get the Iraq oil. Perhaps on SNL it would make sense, but realism says otherwise.
Peak Oil has nothing to do with the invasion of Iraq. By definition, Peak Oil means that all global production has been reached. We have already calculated the oil reserves in Iraq. Is you’re argument that USA invades Iraq to find new oil reserves?
The driving force behind the Iraq war was a small band of neo-cons that wanted to remove Saddam for the benefit of Israel–with the help of the Israel lobby they accomplished their goal.
Brad SmithMarch 25th, 2008 at 10:10 am
John the scarecrow is back hanging on my every word. You know, from the wizard of OZ. Someone gave him a piece of paper and now he thinks he has a brain.
KennethMarch 25th, 2008 at 11:32 am
Not just support for Israel. Support for all of America’s bloodstained satrapies. At best, such support severely aggravates the problem of terrorism by furnishing it with a needed political foil. Without a substantial western military and diplomatic presence in the Islamic world, it is unlikely Bin Laden and his affiliates would be able to muster much support for an ideology that promises little in the way of mass advancement through politics. Even in places rife with Islamic fundamentalism such as Somalia, there were no terrorists, at least not ones that could remotely impact the west. Your appeals to incredulity are, as always, ridiculous.
KennethMarch 25th, 2008 at 11:34 am
“Serve” the country? How can one “serve” an abstract noun?
They are dead and their families are hurting, and I’m sure people like you add a lot of salt to the fresh wounds of their families. You are a very cold hearted and hateful person.
How touching. If only you had such sympathy for those Iraqis on the receiving end of the military venture. Perhaps then you might be prompted to examine the evidence rather than simply reciting bare assertions and glittering generalities of this nature.
KennethMarch 25th, 2008 at 11:52 am
Addendum: Michael Scheuer reviews the most comprehensive survey of Muslim opinion to date:
http://www.antiwar.com/scheuer/?articleid=12576
John LowellMarch 25th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
I really must say, Brad, I’ve never owned anyone in quite the way I own you. I ring the bell, you salivate. Tell you what: Since you wouldn’t seem to be able to help yourself, you just keep your focus on me the way you have here over the last few days, say anything you’d like, and I promise I won’t respond. You can even have the last word. Lets see if you’re able to cut yourself loose. I would doubt it somehow.
danMarch 25th, 2008 at 1:17 pm
“Is you’re argument that USA invades Iraq to find new oil reserves?”
No. I’m arguing that we invaded to CONTROL or STEAL Iraq’s oil. Think of it as a mob hit. We knock off a former surrogate capo and take over his territory and control his country’s oil on OUR terms. That’s where the strategic power lies. We run the place, we can decide who gets the oil and under what terms and force or bribe our puppet government to rubber stamp the whole thing.
Just riddle me this. Why are we planning to stay forever no matter the cost in blood and treasure and over the mounting displeasure of the US public? Do you think it’s because we really care about the Iraqi people or because Israel is making us stay forever? Please. Why are we so adamant about forcing this Oil Law down the Iraqis’ throats? You haven’t even tried to explain why we are doing what we’re doing.
“Peak Oil has nothing to do with the invasion of Iraq.”
Based on what? Your assertion? Just because you don’t understand the implications of Peak Oil and the rareness of such an easily accessible oil bounty doesn’t mean Cheney and the oil bigs don’t.
“I find it difficult to imagine that Cheney discussed invading Iraq to get the Iraq oil.”
Wow. just wow. sort of lacking in the imagination department huh? Look at what he’s said. Look at what he’s done and is doing. Connect the dots. I’m done trying to connect them for you.
The StandMarch 25th, 2008 at 5:43 pm
As many as it takes! They joined by choice..and they died with the honor, dignity and the highest respect for giving up life for a country they loved and stood proud to serve!
The StandMarch 25th, 2008 at 5:48 pm
HOOOAHHH brother…. Let the soldiers take care of the war and all the civilians shut up, sit down and hang on! You been doin it for years so stop your bitchin.
philMarch 25th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
Tim R,
How do you know those Bin Laden tapes are real? Because da gubbermint said so?
And why are you still here? Move to Israel and fight for what you believe in, stop being a such pussy and trying to get others to fight the battles you are to cowardly to fight yourself.
Brad SmithMarch 25th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
Oh Johnny Boy whats the matter? Not used to having someone call you out when you say something stupid? I’ll tell you what, when you learn how to respond to anyones postings without using your demeaning, arrogant, pompous, know it all style I’ll stop dogging you out. However, I doubt if you can. You seem to get a kick out of using your staggering vocabulary to degrade anyones comments. It must be some kind of ego deficit. You know, the whole I only feel good when I’m better than someone else garbage. (I picked that up at the university where I received another useless piece of paper)
Oh and thanks for letting me have the last word that would be a first.
Jeff PetersMarch 26th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
anyone who cares about our troops and the scars they returned with after serving in Iraq would be interested in watching this short clip on their testimony at Winter Soldier:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QolkuDjm8fM&eurl=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/laila-alarian/winter-soldiers-confront-_b_93406.html
AndyMarch 27th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
How is dying in an uncalled for invasion of Iraq giving up your life for America?
Bill K.March 28th, 2008 at 10:56 am
Don’t question the government. Just follow the Fuhrer’s orders! The Stand is a fine example of an Aryan, defending the Reich against hordes of inferior barbarians in the East.
Bill K.March 29th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
Perhaps the same way Hitler fought the battle of Stalingrad. Charging headlong into ambushes and encirclement and in the end being wiped out.
navy or momsApril 4th, 2008 at 7:13 am
navyormoms.com (in response to navyformoms.com)
MarineApril 7th, 2008 at 9:13 am
Most of the people who have wrote something on this blog should be kicked out of the country. What you have said about the people who are dying for you disgusts me. They have fought for you and your children and you go and down them for something they are doing for you. Its disgusting.
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