Ads you probably won’t see anywhere

Tim Swanson, May 18, 2009

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These ads were prepared by an advertising agency that does business with the History Channel. We incorrectly posted that these were prepared by the History Channel. The History Channel had nothing to do with these ads. Antiwar.com apologizes for the error. (Please see below for the History Channel’s statement.)

I don’t think Jon Stewart would care much for the first one:

Atomic bomb japan

Iraqi deaths

Via SAI

Statement by the History Channel:

The History Channel has not authorized this advertising campaign. The network is not associated with these ads, nor does The History Channel condone the content of these ads. Anyone familiar with the HISTORY brand knows that this is not in line with the message of the network or our programs. We are asking every site that has posted the ads to remove them immediately, and to correct any statements saying that this was an actual History advertisement.

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5661167 ResponsesAds+you+probably+won%27t+see+anywhere2009-05-19+03%3A46%3A58Tim+Swanson to “Ads you probably won’t see anywhere”

Dale A. Sender
May 18th, 2009 at 8:46 pm

no, you won’t see these ad’s in the United Snakes. admitting that the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was nothing more than a ‘demo’ for Stalin, is also ‘taboo’ too.

in Amerika, you live in a world not too unlike the surreal ERASERHEAD movie where the lead actor, in the end scene, twirls a curtain rod as a squirrel cheek’d blonde tapdances on a stage and nematodes are falling at her feet and she’s crushing them, and then his head pops off, it rolls out the window onto the street, and a kid takes it to an ‘eraser’ fabrication plant to be used as ‘raw material’ then.

this is the best Amerika can muster, is a surreal reality with swardling cloth infants who’s heads ’spout brown 25′ in disgusting rivulets of slime, all the while it’s oil sucking pipes are fastidiously jerking the oil out of the earth at such an astonishling unsustainable rate of speed, that now, with oil depletion a certainty, we’re invading countries and torturing people and blowing up buildings in New York City and in Washington, D.C. to scapegoat a bunch of people in another country who had nothing whatsoever to do with any of this, except be ‘victims’ of us after we attack them.

I know, get to the point. My point, is that when you obliterate a couple of japanese cities that had ZERO STRATEGIC WAR FIGHTING VALUE OF ANY KIND, and then you occupy another nation several decades later, under false pretenses, and slaughter 1.3 million of them, then tell me which is more ’surreal’ and nightmarishly ‘weird’, the ERASERHEAD movie by Mr. David Lynch, or
the U.S. foreign policy since about 1900 or so.

which one is more bizarre. I can’t tell you. I thought the movie, ERASERHEAD, was far more plausible than this bullshit the U.S. puts out as justification for using nuclear weapons on Japan, and for essentially destroying the ‘cradle of civilization’ on the Tigris and the Euphrates rivers.

which one is it?
jack
May 18th, 2009 at 10:20 pm

Truman truly was a major war criminal. The Japanese were begging to surrender. But he would not enter negotiations. It wasn’t enough, to do only Hiroshima, but he had to drop the second bomb on the center of Japanese Catholicism Nagaski. The pilots used the Catholic Cathedral as the target. My ,aunt by the way, was an army nurse on Tinian at the time.
subHuman
May 18th, 2009 at 11:43 pm

Anglo-American Nazis are the winers over Hitler Nazis in the WW2!
Spoils go to the victors!
danel
May 19th, 2009 at 3:10 am

How can these so-called christians (Bush, Rummy, Cheney and Condi) slept at night knowing that they are responsible for killing and sufferings of the Iraqi people? I hope they will all suffer painful illnesses. God how did you let this happen?
Iraqis Killed by Saddam, 300,000; by USA, 1,030,000 | America at War
May 19th, 2009 at 5:01 am

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Tuesday Morning: Yoooou Toooo? « ASSME: American Society of Shitcanned Media Elites
May 19th, 2009 at 6:03 am

[...] The History Channel has some ballsy new ads up in South Africa. The slogan? “History is written by the winners.” That’s such a Don [...]
Svensker
May 19th, 2009 at 6:17 am

I don’t understand why you guys go after Jon Stewart all the time. No, he’s not ideologically perfect. But he was one of the few voices of sanity during the last 8 years, and he also mocks Obama frequently. There are plenty of people to criticize for not speaking up. Are there purity tests, and if you fail one aspect, you’re no longer a person? If so, why all the respect for Pat Buchanan, who certainly fails many tests? He outright supports torture. Why no Pat bashing?
liberranter
May 19th, 2009 at 6:51 am

[W]hy all the respect for Pat Buchanan, who certainly fails many tests? He outright supports torture. Why no Pat bashing?

Good question. Despite occasional fits of well-directed outrage, Buchanan is very obviously a Statist who has no qualms whatsoever about using the muscle of the State to enforce the “right” status quo, including the waging of war against innocents. He only gets queasy when the “wrong” people are holding the reigns of power.
Mooser
May 19th, 2009 at 7:20 am

Hey, guys, in his column in Antiwar today Buchanan reviews the Israel-Palestine situation, and ends with a statement so stunning in its prescience it makes up for any little miggling ideological faults he may posses. He says: “Demography is destiny” High-class knowledge like that you can’t get just anywhere.
001
May 19th, 2009 at 8:53 am

I agree that Justin Raimondo was out of line in calling out stewart. John stewart has been able to push the boundaries of acceptable thought in the mainstream media more than almost anyone else, and because he eventually overstepped what the masters were willing to allow, this proves his moral cowardice?

Its easy to maintain a smug air of superiority when you’re addressing a small niche audience over the internet. That role important, but we also desperately need everyone we can get who is willing to press the boundaries of the system within the mainstream.

People who fail to see the moral subtleties in that and who instead only glorify themselves are the true cowards. I say that as someone who likes a lot of what Raimondo writes, but that shit really pisses me off.
Eric
May 19th, 2009 at 9:14 am

Also, Pat seems to subscribe to the notion that once we’ve started a war, even if it’s one that he himself believes was never justified, we the American people must fall in line and support “victory”, because we can’t be seen to be “weak”. His bullying paranoia about “showing weakness” as a nation is actually very similar the Israelis’ militarist pathology.
J
May 19th, 2009 at 11:34 am

“300,000 killed under Saddam.”

I heard this over and over in 2002-2003. Where is the evidence for this number?

Sure, lots of people died in the Iran-Iraq war and lots died because of the UN imposed sanctions, but where do people get the 300,000 figure?
May 19, 2009 « Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes?
May 19th, 2009 at 12:17 pm

[...] http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2009/05/18/ads-you-probably-wont-see-in-the-us/ [...]
me
May 19th, 2009 at 12:18 pm

You’ll never see one comparing say those killed by Nazis to those killed by SOviets.
Carolyn Raz
May 19th, 2009 at 2:08 pm

You’ve got it all wrong. Truman had the guts to do what needed to be done. Yes, we dropped the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but only because the Japanese refused to surrender. In fact, they were preparing to arm all their men, women and children to fight to the death if we invaded Japan. But more important, the Japanese high command had given orders to ALL commanders of the POW camps throughout Asia to annihilate every POW. It was at the discretion of each commander as to the method. There were 60,000 Allied POW’s alone working on the Thai-Burma Railroad (as in the Bridge on the River Kwai), not to mention all the men who were captured on Bataan and Corregidor, Singapore, the Indonesian Islands and other Pacific Islands. In addition to the Allied POW’s (Americans, English, Australian, and Dutch), there were thousands and thousands of native conscripts who were used as slave labor.

If Truman hadn’t dropped those bombs, the resulting death toll would have been incalcuable. The only persons to blame for our dropping the bombs were Emperor Hirohito and his generals. We have NOTHING to apologize for.
Andy
May 19th, 2009 at 2:30 pm

I would only mention that the Pearl Harbour attack BEGAN the chain of events that LED to Hiroshima. Although a relatively modest number of U.S. deaths occurred on P.H. it wasn’t due to any LACK OF TRYING on Japan’s part. I’m perfectly sure that Imperial Japan would not have hesitated for one single second to have used atomic weaponry on America if the situation had been reversed. Imperial Japan’s behaviour was truly barbaric throughout the entire war. Not just to American P.O.W.’s but in China, Korea etc. Japan has never really ‘come clean’ on its wartime atrocities unlike Germany and there is no real sense of remorse for its agression in Asia in the 1930’s and 40’s. There are some excellent websites out there documenting Japanese atrocities. Google them. To me the REAL question is could America have avoided war with Japan with a different foreign policy? For that matter had America not picked a war with Spain in 1898, war would have seemed PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE since America would have had no troops or posessions in the Pacific. You could argue that, however indirectly, the Spanish-American war set the stage for the Pacific conflict with Imperial Japan. That’s why war should be avoided altogether. Spain was an ocean away from America and Japan was an EVEN BIGGER OCEAN AWAY. War with either country should and could have been avoided if America had just not abandoned it’s non-interventionist foreign policy. As for Iraq I opposed that war from day one.
illuminati
May 19th, 2009 at 2:46 pm

We killed 3.5 vietnamese and ho chi min was using the US Constitution as a model for Viet nam’s future goverment. We are the Nazis, literally. And as good Nazis our war criminals are the best of them.

But look at Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan it appears that God is on their side. Our military operates out of a Pentagram located in the Forehead of the beast…. Uuuuhhhhhhhh!
justaguy
May 19th, 2009 at 5:06 pm

Oh please. The bombs were a warning to Europe and Stalin in particular. The Japanese had been trying to surrender and Truman acted AGAINST the wishes of his own military.
chip
May 19th, 2009 at 9:12 pm

It is my understanding that an oil embargo on Japan invited the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
Unfortunately, many Americans still believe that the Japanese attack was unprovoked, or at least a complete surprise. For credible evidence to the contrary, read “Pearl Harbor, Final Judgment” by Henry C. Clausen (JAGD, Major (Ret.)) and Bruce Lee.
Advocate4Liberty
May 19th, 2009 at 9:27 pm

Of course “many Americans still believe that the Japanese attack was unprovoked”. Where do (most) Americans learn about history? In government-controlled public schools.

Of course they’re going to adhere to the party line: keep the peasants stupid and in line.

And it works. Even in this forum, where you would expect the readership to know better, we still get comments that put the blame on Japan rather than on Truman, where it belongs.
TourofDuty
May 19th, 2009 at 10:47 pm

US history textbooks are replete with accounts of the so-called “Cold War” but few actually delve into the inconvenient truth of just how many were killed in the name of “anti-Communism.” Vietnam: American Holocaust is an 87 minute documentary – narrated by Martin Sheen – that very effectively weaves together official policies of the United States with actual recordings of President Johnson, Kennedy, Defense Secretary McNamara, and several other high-level US policy decision makers, providing powerful insight into the mechanics of US foreign policies. Just how many has the United States killed in the name of fighting the global “communist conspiracy”?
TourofDuty
May 19th, 2009 at 10:51 pm

US history textbooks are replete with accounts of the so-called “Cold War” but few actually delve into the inconvenient truth of just how many were killed in the name of “anti-Communism.” Vietnam: American Holocaust is an 87 minute documentary – narrated by Martin Sheen – that very effectively weaves together official policies of the United States with actual recordings of President Johnson, Kennedy, Defense Secretary McNamara, and several other high-level US policy decision makers, providing powerful insight into the mechanics of US foreign policies. Just how many has the United States killed in the name of fighting the global “communist conspiracy”? Watch the video here: arlingtonwestsantamonica.org/AW6
Lester Ness
May 20th, 2009 at 12:10 am

Eisenhauer and Macarthur were of the opinion that the a-bombs were unnecessary. Maybe they were wrong, but they were well-informed and on the spot.

Lester Ness
Kunming
China
Lester Ness
May 20th, 2009 at 12:11 am

Jon Stewart cannot punish them.

Lester Ness
Kunming
China
Lester Ness
May 20th, 2009 at 12:13 am

You must not look in the right places; such comparisons are common.

Lester Ness
Kunming
China
Lester Ness
May 20th, 2009 at 12:29 am

WW II in China began with the “Mukden Incident” and the occupation of Manchuria, 1931. The usual number of Chinese deaths I see is around 30, 000, 000 killed. Most of those were civilians. No one in China ever forgets the family atrocity story, believe me!

Lester Ness
Kunming
China
Lester Ness
May 20th, 2009 at 1:11 am

Check out R. J. Rummel, _Death By Government_ (1994). There’s an uncorrected proof copy online at http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM

Lester Ness
Kunming
China
Jimmiet
May 20th, 2009 at 2:37 am

Why is it that you never see anti-war protest agaist those like the taliban, or the abu-sayef or the drug lords in central America?
Which one of you are speaking out for the jailed political disidents in Cuba and China?
Oh how easy it is to be brave when you live in a free country.

Everydayconservative.blogspot.com
Roslyn
May 20th, 2009 at 4:57 am

Carolyn Raz, you are such a typical American.
Chris Dowd
May 20th, 2009 at 5:33 am

I can’t remember where I read this but someone made a great comment about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. If instead of A-bombs- US troops had entered those cities and then set about to kill every man, woman, and child living there – slaughtering them systematically up close and personal- to “make a point” that resistance was futile and get the Japanese to surrender- would that have been “the right thing to do?”

If it was “effective” does that it make it alright? That seems to the be “debate” in America about torture. Does it work or not? Gives me an idea of just how sick this country has become (or always has been depending on your viewpoint.)
Wizarlock
May 20th, 2009 at 6:15 am

USA! USA! USA!
gmk
May 20th, 2009 at 6:28 am

Ummmh i wanted to say something about you being a dumb ass yank that really needs a history lesson not written buy another yank…

But why bother…you will never learn.
popurls.com // popular today
May 20th, 2009 at 6:58 am

popurls.com // popular today…

story has entered the popular today section on popurls.com…
gatz
May 20th, 2009 at 7:07 am

I use to hate Americans before it was cool.
Josh
May 20th, 2009 at 7:11 am

I agree that any loss of life is tragic but you have to see that the ruler of Japan wanted to surrender, but his generals did not allow him until we dropped the bomb. Also remember that we told them that we had something that would devastate them and they did not believe us. We gave them a chance, and they put their ignorance and ego over their people.

on a side note…there have been a lot of people killed in Iraq…but not that many and definitely not as many as Saddam had. thats just anti war propaganda.
anotherguy
May 20th, 2009 at 7:14 am

That’s not remotely true. The Potsdam Declaration, with the Soviet Union joining in the Pacific War against the Japanese, was issued on July 17th, calling for Japanese surrender. By this time, obviously, the Germans and Italians had surrendered, and the Japanese had the full weight of the Allies on them. They didn’t surrender immediately. In fact, they didn’t surrender for 3 whole weeks after the declaration. The bomb was dropped on August 7th.

The bashing that Raz is receiving here is a little unwarranted and the “informed” critics should probably take a second look at their own viewpoints.
jackodn
May 20th, 2009 at 7:15 am

US – Japanese relations were strained for quite a while prior to WWII, including the humiliating terms of the Treaty of Portsmouth, negotiated by Teddy Roosevelt (who won a Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts). The Japanese military thoroughly defeated a major European power (Russia), but were not rewarded with the typical spoils of war and the “peace” led to several important developments:

1. It hastened the Russian Revolution, as the dissatisfaction of the people of Russia with their rulers increased following the defeat

2. It caused widespread rioting in Japan as the populace perceived the slap in the face from the terms of peace.

3. It caused a deep-seated mistrust of the West by Japan, and helped create the climate for continued reliance on military power independent of the West, and later, in conflict with the West.
morethanjustaguy
May 20th, 2009 at 7:17 am

As if you know buddy. ANYTHING you read will tell you the japanese were NOT going to surrender. Of course, you are always free to show proof on what you say. I bet it will be wrong though or have no factual basis.
morethanjustaguy
May 20th, 2009 at 7:18 am

I used to hate gatz. That was always cool.
anotherguy
May 20th, 2009 at 7:18 am

Also, don’t be silly about the demonstration of the bomb. It might possibly have been flexing of muscle as a side-”benefit”, but historians generally believe that Stalin knew about the bomb before Truman even got briefed on it, thanks to his extensive network of spies.
morethanjustaguy
May 20th, 2009 at 7:19 am

Why? because she is right and you are not?
Milos
May 20th, 2009 at 7:19 am

The Japanese were a terrible and merciless enemy, and, I’m sorry to say, probably deserved everything they got, including the A-bombs.
jackodn
May 20th, 2009 at 7:19 am

One final point – its easy to look back after the fact and say what we should have done, but it seems pretty obvious that we could have dropped the first A bomb on a deserted island to show the awesome power and give the leadership of Japan an opportunity to weigh their choices.

Additionally, dropping the second bomb before the Japanese had a chance to surrender was unnecessary and in my opinion, probably related to wanting to keep the Eastern power emasculated after their very successful, multi-decade increase in power. I think the West was scared of the East and wanted to use whatever it took to both destroy them and keep them from ever considering being powerful again, militarily.
morethanjustaguy
May 20th, 2009 at 7:20 am

I bet you are still upset the americans probably saved your ass in some way. You sound french.

For sale!
1 antique french rifle.
Never fired! Dropped twice.
RickM
May 20th, 2009 at 7:29 am

My father was in training to participate in the invasion of the Japanese mainland. The combined death toll was projected to be five million. Which makes the first picture patently ridiculous attempt to rewrite history. The rest of the world hates the US, not for what we’ve done but because they’ve been brainwashed by this type of tripe.
MitchG
May 20th, 2009 at 7:32 am

I always find the criticism from Europe about atrocities committed by America to be humorous.

America has its own skeletons in its closet, but I shudder to think about race-relations in the hands of Europeans. Jews and Muslims have constantly faced the ire of the open-minded European community. I do not need to hear criticism about America’s choice to drop the atomic bomb on Japan from those that looked away while Nazi Germany began its great land grab. England and France absconded from any duty to protect those they entered into treaty agreements with prior to the German invasion of France.

It is easy to look back 60 or 70 years to say what we did was wrong. Total War was the American strategy. Unfortunately during war tough decisions must be made. I don’t envy the leaders that assume the responsibility to make the decision to use the A-bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The delusion that the American military thought Japan was about to surrender is just that. Delusion. Quite frankly, you’re at the other end of the spectrum drinking the ridiculous anti-American Kool Aid.

The facts? Japan had not surrendered. Japan did not surrender after the first bomb was dropped. Why not? How many millions of people were killed during their invasions of Russia, Korea, South East Asia, and China? Let’s discuss Nanking/Nanjing. An estimated 200,000 people were killed by the Japanese troops. Shot, maimed, raped, speared, bayoneted, and whatever else ran through the minds of the Japanese.

It’s war. It’s awful. No one wins in war, but to surreptitiously revise history to draw ill-fated corollaries between past events and today is sad and depressing.

The fact is, the ill-begotten military actions of Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq are their own problems. To somehow redefine history when the United Nations fought to turn back the evil of the Nazis, the Italians, and the Japanese presented. Their ethnocentric world view was reprehensible.

I’m sorry it is inconvenient for you to think the United States has not always been the big bad guy, but ask yourself how you would have looked at the world in 1945? It is easy to second guess when you are 60 years removed from the events of that time.
larry wallburger
May 20th, 2009 at 7:34 am

morethanjustaguy, are you 7 years old?
Some Other Guy
May 20th, 2009 at 7:36 am

Actually even after the second atomic bomb the generals of Japan still did not want to surrender. They intended to keep Japan fighting until there was nothing left. The men in charge of the military even attempted to stop Emperor Hirohito from making his address of surrender.
theotherotherguy
May 20th, 2009 at 7:41 am

And another thing was, we didn’t want to be shamed like we were in Berlin a few months earlier. Because of the fact that the Soviets had declared war on Japan, we wanted to Japan to surrender to US unconditionally to be able to control Japan in the post war years without any Soviet influence.
Michael Brutsch: Daily Links
May 20th, 2009 at 7:42 am

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none
May 20th, 2009 at 7:43 am

@daniel – There is no god. That’s how.
some dude
May 20th, 2009 at 7:43 am

Yeah, that’d be a good idea. Let your enemy know that one of your plane’s can do a bunch of damage so they can bolster their air defenses.

And how much time should they be given to decide while your countrymen are being held as POWs in horrible conditions? 6 weeks? 6 months?

Right or wrong, the battle plan was sound.
Rachael
May 20th, 2009 at 7:45 am

Well, something’s gonna kill ya…
jackodn
May 20th, 2009 at 7:52 am

Bolster their air defenses? Seriously, that’s your “point”? The A Bomb was dropped from a high altitude bomber, and didn’t require hitting any specific target other than a “city”, so please.

A decision on time could be whatever you want it to be. I certainly don’t think 6 months, but how about a week? Let them see what the magnitude of the weapon is, and tell them, you have one week.
jackodn
May 20th, 2009 at 7:55 am

Any student of history should know that “history” is constantly rewritten. You can call it “tripe” if you wish, but the projections of death toll are merely speculation.

The rest of the world doesn’t hate the US, I’ve spent my life traveling and usually find most people genuinely admire the US for many things. It isn’t a bad thing to have self-reflection, and to learn from our past.

Please refrain from using terms like “brainwashing”, it just cheapens any point you’re trying to make.
Harry
May 20th, 2009 at 7:57 am

As for Pearl Harbor, if Japan hadn’t attacked the U.S. then the U.S. wouldn’t had bombed them. As for Iraq, most of those Iraqis killed were killed by Iraqis, ……. but we wont mention suicide bombers will we
Hal
May 20th, 2009 at 8:13 am

You have your history incorrect. 1) The Japanese high command refused to surrender until after the second bomb. 2) If the bombs were not used an invasion by allied forces would have resulted in an estimated 800,000 allied soldiers dead and 3.5 million Japanese civilians and soldiers dead. 3) using atomics ended the war faster and with a considerable lower death toll.
WAR IS HELL. WAR IS BARBARIC, but no nation can survive under geopolitical conditions without engaging in war. Such is the nature of mankind. Of course there countries that have managed to avoid this, but we are no Switzerland where every adult male is a member of the military and has an automatic assault weapon in their home.
Last but by no means least, hindsight is 20/20.
Speaking of hindsight do you know what started the War with Japan? Japanese aggression in China and Indochina. The FDR warned them to cease and desist. They refused and so we refused to ship them anymore oil. When Admiral Yamamotto was given the go ahead to invade Pearl Harbor he was quoted as saying “I am afraid we will be waking a sleeping giant”. They knew what they were getting into, but their gamble didn’t pay off.
We had an exit strategy for WWII it was to get the enemy to surrender. We had no exit strategy for Vietnam, or the current Iraq war. Each War has its own circumstances.
Civil
May 20th, 2009 at 8:16 am

Uh… Aren’t then all Americans upset about being saved by the French? There is no way in hell they would have won independence without French Naval power (and supplies of arms, training, troops and tacticians). Of course that is truly one piece of history that has been re-written completely.
Romulus
May 20th, 2009 at 8:36 am

http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/hussein.html
Zara
May 20th, 2009 at 8:40 am

What about we stop talking about nation and rather talk about just people ? So some guy dropped and bomb on a town and killed 1 million other people… that is the whole story.
esc.sequence
May 20th, 2009 at 8:40 am

All I have to say is Nanking. They had it coming.
Patricia Beeson
May 20th, 2009 at 8:48 am

>I think the West was scared of the East

Yeah, that’s good historical research, ain’t it?
Dude
May 20th, 2009 at 8:58 am

Hmmm… and handing out anthrax candies to Chinese children:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

All war is stupid, but for a population to allow things like
Unit 731 make me wonder about collective karma.
laura
May 20th, 2009 at 9:05 am

“Yes, we dropped the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but only because the Japanese refused to surrender” — bullsh!t!

The Japanese DID offer to surrender repeatedly, asking only to keep their emperor. The US, however, demanded UNCONDITIONAL surrender. The Japanese were worried that the US would execute their emperor. So just because the Japanese were not willing to surrender the life of their emperor, the US dropped the atomic bombs.

It was a totally unecessary choice on the US’ part, militarily or otherwise.
Sean
May 20th, 2009 at 9:07 am

Of course, lets not forget that the US extensively firebombed Japan in the months leading up to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, leading to more death and displacement then the atomic explosions.
Devin
May 20th, 2009 at 9:08 am

This is just ignorant.
Q
May 20th, 2009 at 9:15 am

I recall once seeing a program on the History Channel about the start of the pacific conflict which said something like a Japanese diplomat had actually been sent to give a warning to US military officials but he was either turned away or circumstances prevented him from delivering the message. I’m not sure that this is correct, but I do know that there were many different indications that an attack was coming that were more or less ignored.
Chris Dowd
May 20th, 2009 at 9:32 am

Every general of the time was against the A-Bomb dropping and they said it was wholly unnecessary. DC government lovers, fed-gov military bootlickers, and apologists simply lie to themselves and repeat the same discredited untruths over and over about those bombings.

The fact of the matter is that Japan was blockaded in 1945- it was no threat to this country anymore. It was just a matter of time before they surrendered.

DC murdered a couple hundred thousand civilians over “unconditional surrender” and then- accepted the one condition the Japanese asked before hand! Retention of their Emperor as a figure head.

It was and remains a war crime of equal horror to anything the Nazis or Japanese themselves did. Accept it.
Chris Dowd
May 20th, 2009 at 9:36 am

If innocent Japanese civilians “had it coming” over Nanking – how many American civilians “have it coming” over Mai Lai or Fallujah or the recent Farah bombing in Afghanistan?

I love the collective guilt argument- same one the Nazis used when they murdered entire villages in reprisal over partisan attacks- what the Nazis called “terrorist attacks”.
raw
May 20th, 2009 at 9:46 am

Pearl Harbour Deaths 2378

Hiroshima Deaths 170000

Japan Invaders Kill 600000 Civilians in East China Province: Historian
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200104/04/eng20010404_66834.html

The Rape of Nanking Japanese Soldiers Torture and Kill 300000 People
http://recommended-non-fiction.suite101.com/article.cfm/the_rape_of_nanking

Japanese war crimes (see mass killings)= millions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

Anecdotal evidence:

I once read an article I believe on cnn.com where Korean’s were protesting a Hiroshima exhibit that was touring Korea. Why? Because of what the Japanese did to Korean’s during WWII.

In college, my roommate was Vietnamese. I asked him, are the Vietnamese bitter at what the Americans did to your country? He said: no where near as angry as the war they have been fighting with the Chinese (1000 years), no where near as angry as what the Japanese did to us during WWII.

I’m not trying to be anti-Japanese here. I have nothing against Japan or Japanese people. I’m just widening the narrow mindedness of focusing on just Hiroshima and Pearl Harbour.
toomanypeoplelikeyou
May 20th, 2009 at 9:52 am

You’re an idiot and a typical American that thinks they know, but just buys what they are told by their previous generation. Do some alternate investigating and you will find that the walls of American history are quite a blur.
kemayo's status on Wednesday, 20-May-09 18:05:09 UTC - Identi.ca
May 20th, 2009 at 10:03 am

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duhduh
May 20th, 2009 at 10:27 am

The UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER was called for based on Germany’s quick rearmament and capture of most of Europe. Conditional surrender would not have been accepted by any Allied nation after Hitler rearmed in 10 years.
Escobeezy
May 20th, 2009 at 10:33 am

Thank You!!!! I Hate People Who Say The Bomb Wasn’t Needed. It Was Needed Or Else Many More Would Have Died. The Japanese Where Not Begging For Surrender They Where Doing Suicide Raids.
enry_straker
May 20th, 2009 at 10:33 am

Wow – Justification for the worst crime in history. May your lord forgive your justifications for massacre and may you never see one in your life.

First,

Hitler has been demonized for the holocaust. How come not a single Atomic bomb was dropped over germany?

And guess how many americans of german descent were interred in concentration camps in the US?

Mussolini defined the very term fascism and supported hitler in his depradations, yet not a single Atomic bomb dropped on italy.

And guess how many americans of italian descent were interred in concentration camps in the US?

BUT JAPAN NEEDED TO BE TAUGHT A LESSON AND 2 ATOMIC BOMBS DROPPED ON 2 CITIES in a matter of days.

And japanese americans were interred in concentration camps in the US for no fault of their own?

To those who try to justify this, are you even human beings with real human feelings? Pathetic.

If such people come to power in the US, i guess the world will see more such droppings – on places like iraq, pakistan, afghanistan, sudan etc – ALL IN THE NAME OF SAVING LIVES. ( I guess the depleted Uranium used in Iraq and against the palestinians would not count towards really saving lives )
fishking
May 20th, 2009 at 10:34 am

the first bomb was so convincing that they drop another bomb. if there was enough time to make a third we should of drop it also to be extra convincing.
loofidru
May 20th, 2009 at 10:44 am

@ carolyn raz….

believe that raz woman, your national identity, who you are as a USer depends on it.
It’s like children that know that their father is a mafia guy, that robs, beats and murders people…but goes to church every sunday. That somehow appeases them.
However, can’t cover the sun with your finger girl.
mike
May 20th, 2009 at 10:54 am

I opposed the invasion of Iraq and I would definitely put myself left of center, but where did that 1,030,000 number come from? I have not found a credible source that puts the death toll (military and civilian) anywhere near that count.
Jim Beardsell
May 20th, 2009 at 11:10 am

Apparently and as usual the people who are so well informed about dropping the A Bomb on Japan were not in the service at that time nor were they to be counted among the estimated 90,000 to1200,000 casualties our troops would have sustained. It’s always the same now and then, the most vociferous were never and never will be in harms way.
geo
May 20th, 2009 at 11:29 am

The Japanese weren’t ready to surrender. They thought they could keep the US from occupying their islands and were going to defend it to the death.

Furthermore they wouldn’t have believed that we had such a bomb if it hadn’t been used.

It couldn’t be “demonstrated” somewhere in japan away from populations becuase 1. the Japanese had a nasty habit of moving us service prisoners to areas that thought would be bombed to try to limit the bombing and 2. becuase the USA only had enough nuclear material for two bombs and it took 6 months to make enough for each. Therefore one couldn’t be wasted. 3. IF you dropped enough bombs one eventually wasn’t going to work which would have only strengthened Japanese resolve and allowed them to duplicate the design and use it on the USA.

Furthermore the Japanese actually had exploded their own atomic bomb at a water test site off the Korean coast as the war was ending and they planned to use it agaisnt the USA fleet which they would have done. Their program based was both in Tokyo and in what is now North Korea (where Japan often did research using slave labor)
It became public knowledge just within the past five years when a Japanese professor in the USA died and his widow turned his papers over to the History channel who then meet with the other scientists who had kept the secret all this time. The other Japanese scientist’s admitted it then on camera when they saw his papers listing them. They also said they actually denoted an atomic bomb of their own in a Korean harbor as a test. their Tokyo research facility was bombed out.

the whole documentary is here

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001CU7UJG?ie=UTF8&tag=change0b-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B001CU7UJG

History — Japan’s Atomic Bomb
geo
May 20th, 2009 at 11:35 am

” It was just a matter of time before they surrendered.”

uh no . It was a matter of thousands and perhaps hundreds of thousands of invading Us army soldiers dying.
The usa couldn’t retain military standing for years “waiting”.

And Japan wasn’t going to give up without being invaded.

And frankly no one in the USA wanted anymore soldiers to die. They had been dying for years and if you could end it without the loss of any more Americans well no one in America was going to choose any other way.
It may be history to you but my father was scheduled for those landings after already Guadacanal and Okinawa and he probably wouldn’t be here and neither would I if the bombs hadn’t been dropped.

Easy for you to sit in your fat chair and talk about the relative merits of not bombing.
Big difference when you’ve been at war for 4 years and are scheduled to face the machine guns on the beachs. Let’s see you in that position and see how you scream to use the bomb so you don’t have to take your chances in front of the machine guns.
geo
May 20th, 2009 at 11:37 am

I hope people realize that the carpet bombing of cities in Europe and Japan routinely killed d more city inhabitants in a far worse less instant way than the nukes did.

The US bomber pilots dropping incendiaries on Tokyo SMELLED THE CLOUDS OF BURNING FLESH that rose up to meet their planes in the second and third waves.
nomad
May 20th, 2009 at 11:41 am

To Enry_Straker – we didn’t drop A-bombs in Europe because we had over 250,000 troops there, and maybe 500,000 allied troops there. The US would have had to tell every general/commander on the field in Europe that this was coming. Do you know how logistically impossible that was in the 1940’s, especially during war, with spies pretty much everywhere? And a change of wind could have killed a ton of US/Allied soldiers, including innocents. That is why we didn’t drop an a-bomb on Germany or Italy. As for Japan, all we had there we’re spies, no soldiers in large quantities. So there was really no threat to American lives, which is what is always on the minds of generals and the President.

I’m sure you could have figured that out if you just thought about it a little.
POW
May 20th, 2009 at 11:42 am

Japan told it’s people after the first A-Bomb that it was the sun reaching down from the heavens. The US told Japan that this would happen every week until they gave up.

Japan could not just surrender. It was against their principals. Only in the face of complete destruction could this social value be changed.

It is a travesty happened to Japan. But it would have been a bigger shame to lose another 100,000 US troops in the invasion of Japan and or fall under the Bushido imperial dictatorship that was allied with Hitler. I know that if this was the case I most likely would not be here to comment as my grandfather was stationed in the pacific.

The same amount of people died in Hiroshima as did in some of the conventional bombing attacks in Europe. Dresden for example had 20k-100k die in a two week bombing raid. 1 bomb for every two people. Killing is killing. War is hell.

We can help by not allowing war to be ‘good business’ and ousting cooperate influences in government.
frank
May 20th, 2009 at 11:50 am

You can’t compare Nanking with Mai Lai or Fallujah or the Farah bombing in Afghanistan and expect to be taken seriously. 300,000 died in Nanking after the city surrendered not during the battle. Next you will be comparing the slave trade to puppy mills.
shahen
May 20th, 2009 at 12:06 pm

carolyn, you are dispicable
deadmentalk
May 20th, 2009 at 12:07 pm

well that’s the official line.

“Truth is relative.”
frank
May 20th, 2009 at 12:10 pm

The first working bomb didn’t exist until July of 1945. VE day had occurred war so the war in europe was over.

As for you imprisonment points. Race, that is all.
mr_right
May 20th, 2009 at 12:11 pm

>>> How come not a single Atomic bomb was dropped over germany?

Germany was defeated before the bomb was ready.

VE Day = May 8, 1945.
Trinity blast = July 16, 1945.

It’s sad when people ignore simple facts.

Do yourself a favor and read some history books.
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May 20th, 2009 at 12:45 pm

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Joe
May 20th, 2009 at 12:52 pm

History is written by the victors. WC
Joe
May 20th, 2009 at 12:58 pm

perhaps you should look up an “opinion”, as this was clearly one of them…
Willem
May 20th, 2009 at 1:02 pm

“I bet you are still upset the americans probably saved your ass in some way. You sound french.

For sale!
1 antique french rifle.
Never fired! Dropped twice.”

But you could not beat the British without them.
You are seriously misinformed.
Ali
May 20th, 2009 at 1:16 pm

Carolyn Raz,

All those reasons for dropping the A-Bomb on a defeated country? I did not know it was so complex. At least not for the United State of Assholes.
IdontlikeWAR
May 20th, 2009 at 1:19 pm

You should be jailed for that hogwash.That’s just as bad as Muslims declaring there was no holocaust.You just plain disgust me.We were attacked and you are trying to say we were the cause of all the suffering.Go to hell and talk to all those real war criminals.Ask them about the rape of Nanking or the diseases they inoculated into POWS.If you lived near me my grandpa would have me kick your ass over that kind of slander.You best go read AND LEARN your history before you go spouting that kind of hogwash.At least fake a seizure to hide how truly ignorant you really are.Now tell me where in the hell did you get your info from so I can see why you are so ignorant about WWII.
IdontlikeWAR
May 20th, 2009 at 1:25 pm

That’s just your opinion and it amounts to .000000002 % in the real world.
stupidpeasant
May 20th, 2009 at 1:27 pm

November, 1936: Japan joins Germany in signing the Anti-Comintern Pact, concluded to provide a two-front threat to the Soviet Union.

November, 1938: The New Order for East Asia is declared by Japan. This declaration of Japanese plans for dominance of East Asia further deteriorates their relations with western nations.

July, 1939: The United States announces its withdrawal from its commercial treaty with Japan.

August, 1941: The United States, which at the time supplied 80% of Japanese oil imports, initiates a complete oil embargo. This threatens to cripple both the Japanese economy and military strength once the strategic reserves run dry, unless alternative oil-sources can be found.

reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Events_preceding_World_War_II_in_Asia

Inbetween all these dates are numerous wars and fighting instigated by Japan against Russia, China, and other outlaying island nations in the pacific.

All Truman did was cut off Japans oil. Japan decided to retaliate by sinking our Navy before we could mobilize it and bring our Navy to bear on Japan.

As far as anyone with half a brain should be concerned, Truman made a very difficult choice that I’m sure he had a hard time living with, but it saved the lives of millions more Japanese and Americans than it took. Yes it sucked that he nuked Japan… twice… but war is a bad thing, if you can’t deal with the repercussions, don’t start one.

Our current Situation in the U.S. is a good example. We are being financially punished for our bad decisions, but right now pulling out of that area overnight would create far more problems that would only effect everyone in the long run. Thats why our last president tried to create a coalition to police the aftermath of Afghanistan, because it is a huge job and one country can’t do it alone.

Thanks for ditching us assholes, as your prize you got hammered by the financial crisis as well.
IdontlikeWAR
May 20th, 2009 at 1:28 pm

Wish you had been in that war.Would have loved to see your sorry ass jump off the amphibious and getting shot at.
Bill in Spring
May 20th, 2009 at 1:30 pm

I’m not a historian nor am I highly educated. But I have an opinion and a computer so here I go.

Before the atomic bombs were dropped, 67 cities in Japan subjected to intense firebombing raids. Ultimatum demanding that Japan surrender unconditionally was given to them a week before the A-bombs were dropped, and it was ignored. They didn’t think we could do anything to stop their conquest of Asia.

Bomb #1 dropped on Hiroshima with devastating effect. Japan did NOT surrender.

We waited a few days, hoping that the Japanese would surrender. But noooooooo…….

Bomb #2 dropped on Nagasaki. Japan got the point and surrendered, but not immediately. They had to think about it for another six days.

To me, the fact that it took TWO A-bombs to force their surrender indicates that they were not going to go down without a fight to the death and that they were very stubborn.

Think about it – you’re the leaders of a country at war with other countries. One of them drops a bomb – one bomb – that destroys an entire city basically. What would you do? Stick your tongue out and go “Nyah, nyah nyah, you didn’t really hurt us!!!” Or would you say “HOLY #&#%!(ING #($&@!!! WE SURRENDER! WE SURRENDER!”

I mean, the WORLD had never seen such an astonishing weapon wielded with such utter destructive force that it destroyed a city like that. And Japan still refused to yield and surrender? Isn’t that the hallmark of some really moonbat, scary crazy people?

Sadly, it took the deaths and injuries of two entire Japanese cities to make the point that America had just tipped the balance of power irrevocably toward the possessors of atomic weaponry and that continued conflict was utterly stupid and futile.

As has been the case in other wars, crazy ideology played a big part in Japan’s quest to conquer Asia. They thought they had a right to do it, a manifest destiny, a divine right to take whatever they could. They had to be stopped. It was very, very dumb of them to attempt to conquer Asia. They almost pulled it off until they made the mistake of bombing Pearl Harbor, which they considered a strategic move that would clear the way for more conquest. They actually thought that America would not be able to respond effectively. Bad idea and it didn’t work out so well.

War sucks. I don’t recommend it. It’s bad for you.

Peace,

Bill in Spring
IdontlikeWAR
May 20th, 2009 at 1:30 pm

That was because there wasn’t an atomic bomb yet dumb bass.
foxskews
May 20th, 2009 at 2:12 pm

Your handle seems strangely dissonant with your comments. Obviously, you are a troll.
Professor Knowledge
May 20th, 2009 at 2:17 pm

*pretends to have been there, has heard stories, tells it like no other version of events could have possibly happened, is insulted when someone disputes my lies with more lies*
moneee
May 20th, 2009 at 2:17 pm

to morethanjustaguy

It’s ironic that you’re advocating for education but can’t even spell “by” correctly.

Dumbfuck.
justaguy
May 20th, 2009 at 2:26 pm

I think the adds in question are a bit divisive. When discussing history it doesn’t matter where you might be from, there isn’t a single country on the planet that hasn’t done something awful to some other country and and can be vilified. It is sheer hypocrisy to decry the horrendous acts of another nation whilst forgetting or ignoring all the shit that your homeland has done in the past.

I think they are clever add campaigns, especially in this time of general anti-American sentiments around the world, but the moral outrage I’ve read on this thread reads a bit hollow, because the same type of advertisements could be made in America but adjusted with whatever crimes against the world your (by your I guess this means non-american)* country has done. And all that means is it’s a clever add campaign and is doing it’s job.

*Except for maybe Canada, you guys are alright.
Charles Martel
May 20th, 2009 at 2:27 pm

“Easy for you to sit in your fat chair and talk about the relative merits of not bombing.
Big difference when you’ve been at war for 4 years and are scheduled to face the machine guns on the beachs. Let’s see you in that position and see how you scream to use the bomb so you don’t have to take your chances in front of the machine guns.”

At least the Japanese had the guts to sacrifice themselves to defend their homeland. I sure as hell couldn’t conceive of Americans doing anything remotely as courageous if the U.S. of A were threatened with invasion. Instead, the sheeple would be running around demanding that the government do something about their vacations being interrupted by fire bombing raids.
Charles Martel
May 20th, 2009 at 2:28 pm

Fine, let’s compare it with the 1,000,000 dead Iraqis.
jackodn
May 20th, 2009 at 3:00 pm

“That’s just your opinion and it amounts to .000000002 % in the real world.”

Seems to me that’s true of everyone, I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make. Your opinions are just as valid or invalid as mine, I just don’t act like an ass as you do.
jackodn
May 20th, 2009 at 3:11 pm

“Yeah, that’s good historical research, ain’t it?”

That is an opinion expressed, not presented as fact. I have, though, studied history and possess an advanced degree in History. I have taken several courses on military history and history of the East. For that reason, I feel as if I have some amount of background with which to formulate my opinions.

Care to add anything constructive to the discussion (as Bill in Spring has done above) or do you just insult people?
Jonny Kaine
May 20th, 2009 at 3:21 pm

Ah… perspective. So few of my fellow Americans seem to have any of it. Empathy is the key to understanding.
Andy
May 20th, 2009 at 3:33 pm

The Unconditional Surrender policy was basically dreamed up by FDR and was a very bad mistake.
Brad Smith
May 20th, 2009 at 3:33 pm

“I’m not a historian nor am I highly educated. But I have an opinion and a computer so here I go”.

You have a computer and obviously internet. So why don’t you use it and get some info before you post anything ever again. I know, I know, war is bad except for the good wars.

I lost four great uncles in that good war. My gradfather who lived to be 102 was against the use of the big one. All this BS about they wouldn’t surrender is a joke. They did want to surrender but we wouldn’t talk unless we got everything we wanted. It was a total lack of diplomacy and a desire for revenge and oneupmanship. We wanted to show the world that we were now the big dog on the block, and didn’t care how many people died.

Peace!
Andy
May 20th, 2009 at 3:42 pm

You wouldn’t know it though from reading Japanese history books or school textbooks. Nor has Japan exactly gone out of its way to compensate China or its many other victims. My reading of Japanese society today is that there is little sense that Japan behaved badly or should be remorseful. The contrast with post-war Germany is dramatic.
Ornaga
May 20th, 2009 at 3:56 pm

when you get to the point of insulting, sorry to say but thats usually the point youve lost the argument.
Andy
May 20th, 2009 at 3:57 pm

The oil embargo (hard to imagine the USA was an OIL-EXPORTING NATION at that time) presented Japan with two choices; totally cave in to the USA or seek oil resources from the Dutch East Indies (modern day Indonesia). The Japanese decided on the latter. The problem was one, FDR had intentionally given the Japanese the erronous impression that an attack there would result in a declaration of war from America and two, the large U.S. military presence in the Philippines which lay between Japan and the East Indies. Since the Japanese believed an “oil grab” meant war anyways, the Pearl harbour attack made sense to them. It was FDR’s deception and machinations that led the Japanese to this false conclusion. Please see the book NO CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER. The real questions are, was war with Japan avoidable? Did the war bring any benefits to America? I believe the answers are yes and no respectively.
Ornaga
May 20th, 2009 at 3:59 pm

and fabrications are made by all.
Ornaga
May 20th, 2009 at 4:04 pm

and yet in whatever country you are in, you will be given a different viewpoint and idea of what ‘really’ happened. honestly, I seriously doubt that any of us here have actually delved into records or got information other than the internet or school history books. no one is unbiased.
Andy
May 20th, 2009 at 4:08 pm

One more episode in history where the USA should have done nothing and just minded its own business. As strange as it may sound doing nothing IS doing something and is often the best policy. A sub-continental politity, moated by two vast oceans, with only two neighbours, (both of them very weak and no military threat) the USA had the luxury of basically just ignoring the “noise and chaos” of the world…but its leaders just can’t resist the temptation to meddle abroad. They “know” what’s best for the world and who wants to be president of America when you can have the whole world for your stage? The classic case in point here was Woodrow Wilson. He basically destroyed the twentieth century.
Ornaga
May 20th, 2009 at 4:08 pm

and how much did the japanese have it coming after Nanjin?
You cant make those comparisons in this war.
nearly all major powers had some kind of war crime.
evil is evil
May 20th, 2009 at 4:33 pm

Hal, how did that exit strategy work out in WWII? My brother in law’s brother is stationed in Germany, Rammstein, I believe. He transferred there from Japan, Yakota. Exactly what is the exit strategy now? That is 65 damned years. Yeppers those exit strategies work real good. As we sang struggling through the paddies “plenty good money to made supplying the army with the tools of its trade.” We could probably house every single person in the United States with the money wasted on those two bases alone.
Bet you’re a real patriot. Trillions for “defense” not a penny for the poor. Probably work for Boeing refurbishing those old B52 murder wagons and complaining about the overtime.
evil is evil
May 20th, 2009 at 5:10 pm

Chris, you might want to check out the “comfort women” with the Japanese Army. One woman for every twelve to eighteen soldiers. Funny but the US troops never captured any in the Pacific. The British had trouble deciding what to do with all of the ones they captured in Burma alone. The crack first rate Japanese divisions were in the attack into India. Over half of them surrendered. No problem. Americans captured what, something like 500 of the banzai boys? Might have had a little something to do with cold blooded murder of the captured. Also, check out subs in the Pacific in WWII. One sub sank three or four Japanese transports. Used up all of it’s ammo sinking the lifeboats and killing the floaters, then reversed and ran its propellers through the rafts of survivors. Believe it happened just before the Bataan death march. I make no apologies for the Japanese, but I’m crazy not stupid with patriotism. The women who jumped off of the cliffs on Guam knew just exactly what to expect from those patriotic american boys. My uncle was the Seebee construction superintendet all through the Pacific war for building the most forward air force bases while the fighting was going on. His best friend was a motor mechanic on the sub that murdered the Japanese soldiers. His friend got 5 years in the naval brig in San francisco bay for “refusing duty” when the sub went back out from Pearl. The sub never came back. The entire Japanese fleet was probably looking for it.
kingclyde
May 20th, 2009 at 5:28 pm

The French help the colonies fight the British for one reason. To stick it to their centuries old enemy the British. They were not interested in the colonies being free but if it meant the British would lose part of the empire they were all for it. Many of us Americans are glad the French helped us and we do recognize that fact. The fact also is that we did help France regain it’s freedom from the Germans twice. The last time their country was in complete ruin not the mention the whole of Fortress Europa was like that. I knew a few French people who told me that the Americans did not do much to help them in WW2. I was shocked at that. They didn’t even know what the Marshall Plan was. Back to the atom bombs. MacArthur want to do an beach landing on the Japanese Mainland. The death toll would have been very high on both sides. The Japanese people had enough of war but the generals were driven by their honor and would not allow it. Truman used the bombs because the war needed to end. The Japanese generals would not allow for surrender after the first bomb fell. It was only after the second bomb fell did the Emperor tell the generals to surrender. It ended the war with the least amount of casualties. But I won’t convince anyone here of the truth of anything. Some people just need to read some books and do research before spouting off ignorance. Good day.
evil is evil
May 20th, 2009 at 5:43 pm

Try smelling a village that has been pulverized with willy peter and then napalmed to death and go in searching for weapons. One broken shotgun. Small intelligence failure. Number of career lifers in my battalion, couple of officers and a couple of E7s who didn’t hide back at headquarters. You draw lifer pay, you lead the charge. Call me when they are coming across the road in front of my house or I’ll back shoot you as you try to call me up. 2 million drawing lifer pay, why are there National Guard and Reserves in the wars? You draw the pay you do the dying. Went to the Pentagon after Nam to get my orders changed. Stayed at the Twin Bridges Marriott. Went to the bar on the top floor. Spec 5. Lifer colonels and commanders and brigadiers buying me drinks. I was the first enlisted man that had been in Vietnam that they had met. Given an M60 and two boxes of linked ammo, I could have reduced the pension cost level significantly. The first shrink that interviewed me because of my attitude said I had “issues that we need to deal with,” I just fingered the .38 snub nose I carried in a belly holster and told him what downers I wanted. We didn’t deal with those “issues.” I was a bottle a day alkie for 7 or 8 years. You like war. You love that John Wayne, how about that draft dodging Ronnie Reagan, hey, little bit of twinkle toes Rambo. Get a real kick out of Ronnie was a soldier. Soldiers don’t get sworn in in the morning, go back to the studio to be fitted for a dress uniform and then go home and screw the old lady. That is what we call draft dodgers. Read his agents description of Ronnie’s military career. Intersplice it with cuts from his, “Now when I was in the Pacific.” stories as he went crazier in the mid 80s. Not quite as bad as the codpiece pilot who waited to desert until his daddy was made ambassador to china.
evil is evil
May 20th, 2009 at 5:49 pm

Nomad, check out the troops exposed to the bombs at Bikini atoll, eniwetok, south nevada. Exposing troops to radiation sure didn’t stop those tests. By the way, somewhere there is a list of the allied troops that were known to be in Nagasaki and Hiroshima when they dropped the bombs. New toy, gee, let’s see what this baby can do.
evil is evil
May 20th, 2009 at 6:08 pm

Start at the most forward camps, call in the locals, hand out all the rations, ammo and weapons and medical supplies. Just abandon everything but the collaborators and their families. Then leave. Make it clear, we made a mess, sorry you’ll have to clean it up, good luck and pull every one of the american heroes we have involved in these filthy little chickenhawk wars and bring them home. Then put all of them on congressional level medical care and officer level compensation. Then we’ll talk about peace with honor or “we’d have won if the liberal newspapers hadn’t turned against us.” Try a couple of hundred of our leaders for treason and hang them. Then start doing business with the middleeasterners. They have been trading for 5 to 10000 years. They’ve been invaded for the same period of time but get the Jesus freaks out and the traders in. It will come out better than you imagine. After all we encouraged them to get rid of half of the Christians in Iraq already. Give the collaborators half of Nevada and enough to live on for several years and then let them start trading. It will all come clean. Read a book by an Indian that had been raised in Canada and did a tour of the Philipines, vietnam, cambodia, thailand and I think burma in the early 80s. His conclusion was, very little resentment, but they all wanted to grow up and be Americans. Sorta like the little problem the Dutch have now with the Somali pirates they’ve caught who do not want to go home. They want their families to come over too. They just want a better life. The story about the one who refused to change cells until they proved that his new cell also had a flush toilet is hysterical.
Rishabh Mishra
May 20th, 2009 at 6:12 pm

Actually, according to what I know, the Japanese took issue with unconditional surrender. Basically, we wanted to get rid of their emperor, and they wanted to keep him. If we offered to let them have their emperor after surrender, they may have yielded.
joe
May 20th, 2009 at 6:38 pm

Dead Japs. LOL!

hahahahHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA… HA!
Santa Clause
May 20th, 2009 at 7:40 pm

And yet the Americans let them keep the emperor!
AF
May 20th, 2009 at 7:44 pm

Do assume the Japanese deserve human rights makes the assumption that these people are humans.
Nikolai
May 20th, 2009 at 8:07 pm

From an American: One has to look at the mind sets of both the Japanese and Americans in WWII. For one thing, if Japan had the A-bomb, they would have used it in a heartbeat. We knew it, and they knew it, only they didn’t have the bomb; we did, and we used it as they would have. Germany would have used the bomb on America as well, and they might’ve had it had they not kicked Einstein out of Germany in 1939. One question that many people ask is, “Why didn’t the U.S. drop the bomb over an unpopulated area in Japan just to show the Japanese it’s destructive power?” The answer is that the folks on the Manhattan project were not certain even ONE bomb would go off, let alone two, and on top of that do sufficient damage to persuade the Japanese to surrender. They were actually surprised when “Little Boy” went off and did the damage it did, and equally surprised when “Fat Man” did the same. One of the American generals involved stated that it was a good thing the Japanese surrendered after Nagasaki, “Because we didn’t have any bombs left.” It has also been pointed out that if the U.S. had dropped A-bombs over unpopulated areas, the Japanese would have thought the Americans weak, that they didn’t have the stomach to use the weapon on a Japanese city, and they would not have surrendered. There are a LOT of things that come into play in the A-bombing of Japan, but it was a time of war, and war kills people. The A-bombs were designed to cause massive destruction and kill LOTS of people, and they worked horribly well in doing just that. Of course it wasn’t “right” to A-bomb Japan, war and killing are never “right”!
Nikolai
May 20th, 2009 at 8:31 pm

Brad, my father was captured on Corregidor and held prisoner by the Japanese for 3.5 years. He and the other POWs were beaten, starved and some were literally worked to death in a factory in Muckdon(Manchuria)China making lathes and other equipment for the Japanese war effort. My dad liked to say; “We were proud of our war production for the Japs. By the end of the war we had SIX, count ‘em, SIX lathes on a flatcar ready to go!” Of course, he meant they did everything they could to sabotage the Japanese war effort, but suffered greatly for. At the end of the war the Japanese surrendered all of their weapons, then the Aussies came in followed by the American paratroopers. My dad and his fellow POWs asked the American paratroopers what happened. One of the paratroopers told them, “Well, they dropped a bomb on a Japanese city that destroyed it and the Japanese didn’t surrender. Then they dropped another bomb on ANOTHER Japanese city, and the Japs finally surrendered.” My dad and his buddies were incredulous, and insisted that it couldn’t have been just one bomb per city, but the paratrooper told them, “Sorry guys, that’s all I heard and all I know.” Later of course, they found this to be exactly the case and were still amazed. When I asked my dad what he thought of the A-bombing of Japan, he said, “Well, I’ve thought about that, and I know they would have used it on us, hell, it was war. Of course, it also got me out of prison camp, so you there you have it.” My father held absolutely no animosity toward the Japanese after the war, and would not tolerate ANY prejudice from us kids against ANY race, either. There you go; just thought you might appreciate another point of view and thanks.
Kyle
May 20th, 2009 at 9:41 pm

I’m an American and I’d rather have a beer with all of you than argue revisionist history. Just think, this argument isn’t going to resolve a thing. A beer and some chat on the other hand…
eris
May 20th, 2009 at 10:05 pm

Except that if you actually did any serious amount of research into US/Pacific Rim politics of the early 20th century you would find that the US had been war gaming against the Japanese since the early 1900s.

The US administration and their sycophants wanted the Pacific Rim for themselves. Yes the Japanese were doing terrible things in Nanking, but the US didn’t care about that.

By strategically baiting the Japanese and cutting off their oil supplies they were pretty much forced to come after us.

Which we had already war gamed and expected. In fact, internal US Navy memo’s available as of about 5 years ago prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Roosevelt knew they were on their way to Pearl Harbor and intentionally failed to inform Pearl so that we would have a reason to join the war.

Sad but true. Google for the memos.
Andy
May 20th, 2009 at 10:13 pm

Your all MISSING the point by arguing back and forth over this highly emotive issue. The REAL points are could the war have been prevented (which would have avoided the atomic bombing anyways) and did America gain anything from the war? The answers are YES and NO. America never should have expanded into the Pacific and should have avoided many of the “in your face” policies used against Japan. It’s like the Panay incident. If that ship hadn’t BEEN in China it wouldn’t have happened. Nor did America gain anything at all from its considerable sacrifices in the Pacific conflict. Look at the USSR, (now Russia). It fought Japan for only a few days and got the southern half of Sakhalin island (which has rich deposits of natural gas, oil and timber) and the Kurile islands (which has rich fishing grounds). What did America gain from its victory over Japan? The war was both AVOIDABLE and UNPROFITABLE. It didn’t increase American security and ‘dragged’ us into wars in Asia in Korea and Vietnam. Some “victory”. War is a self-defeating strategy. Now we have that awful woman Hillary Clinton saying the U.S. is not going to “cede” the Pacific to “anyone”, thus making the same mistakes and provocations to China that we did before with Japan. If the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome then America is insane.
justaguy
May 20th, 2009 at 10:19 pm

Yes. And not followed anyway as it turned out. The emperor remained in place.
Gabe
May 20th, 2009 at 11:10 pm

17 000 000 Chine civilians killed by Japanese
170 000 Japanese killed by atomic bomb
not american
May 21st, 2009 at 12:45 am

calling someone a typical american is insulting?
William
May 21st, 2009 at 4:11 am

I have just one major question to all you idiots that curse us and cut the US down in any way they can. If you think it’s so bad here and we are all bad people now and in the past, why are you still living in this terrible, nasty country? There must be some other country that you think is better than this one, why aren’t you living in it? Since you know that this country isn’t going to change to your ‘paradise’ any time soon, please pack up your bags and go to whatever country you think is better than this one so you won’t have to gripe and moan about how bad the one you are living in is.
reason
May 21st, 2009 at 4:53 am

“I’m not a historian nor am I highly educated. But I have an opinion and a computer so here I go.”

Then stick to the porn and leave the thinking to the thinkers.
jackodn
May 21st, 2009 at 5:07 am

William,

Why should I have to leave my country, for the mere ‘crime’ of reflection? The study of history is replete with such discussions, and yet, for people like you, it equates to “hating” our country. Odd that you seem to feel as if blind loyalty to every thing our country does, and has done, is some sort of patriotism litmus test.

Let me ask you, do you agree with every thing this country does and has done, from the time you were born until now? If not, by your logic, you should leave the country.
Kahlo B
May 21st, 2009 at 5:07 am

How can you argue about something when you where not there. The ad states “History is written by the winners”. So we will never know the truth. We can however look at what we know today, the way the Iraq war has been executed. That should say a lot about who we are today and who we probably were yesterday. I think in the future our history books will say that there where Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq.
jackodn
May 21st, 2009 at 5:16 am

I agree that any of the engaged powers would have used the bomb if they could have, we arguably suffered the least – only one battle on our soil, which was not even a state at the time – and we used it, so its reasonable to assume that countries which suffered terrible internal consequences would use it. That includes everyone, Allied and Axis alike.

Interesting supposition about the mindset of the creators of the bomb, that they didn’t know it would work and therefore dropping it over unpopulated areas would not work. I reply with this question: why would it matter? Drop it, if its a dud, that’s it. I didn’t say announce it, you don’t have to announce an atomic bomb which works. It does that plenty on its own. If it goes off, you see the awesome power. If its a dud, then no one was expecting it anyway. I just don’t understand the logic that it somehow makes a difference.

Now to the point that if you explode it in an unpopulated area they would perceive us as weak, ok, let’s say I grant you that. Well, that would just mean they wouldn’t surrender, and then you go ahead and drop number two on Hiroshima or Tokyo or Nagasaki.

By the way, I have made the effort not to decide whether I think it was a “right” or “wrong” decision, I’m just interested in the debate about the situation.
BG
May 21st, 2009 at 5:36 am

In my opinion, those south and east asian peoples hurt, exploited aan killed by japanese imperialists’ atrocities during the periods were also human just like those japanese in the two cities. I never understand why not post Japan is not cleaning what their preceding generataion did, while feeling a great grief for A-bamb victims. Please look at German, how nicely they have been cleaning what Natzis did. I wonder what Japan have learned from WWII.
melkor
May 21st, 2009 at 7:46 am

‘truman used the bombs becuase the war needed to end’ well…let’s just go ahead and bomb every unfriendly country. blow up their grandmas and instantly scorch and burn all their babies. and then….let’s make sure that for generations after, cancer and birth defects plague them. do you really think that millions of japanese CIVILIANS being murdered so that the marines and navy do not have to incur higher death tolls is OK? that by blaming it on their military washes us of responsibility? this attitude that ‘that’s what war is’ and there are never ‘clean wars’ will insure for the next generation that it is ok to kill people that don’t agree with you. these days, it seems you can get the whole of the population of the most powerful nation on the planet to be ok with mass murder for a corporate military money-grab. from your posts, it is clear you do not have much respect for their culture (the japanese) don’t hide your xenophobia by trying to convince people it’s logical to irradiate and murder multitudes of women and children. would you fight to the death to defend your family and country? does that mean that an opposing power is justified in killing my kids because YOU want to fight to the death? hopefully, in a few generations, people like you will become obsolete, and ‘bred out’ of our gene pool, so we can finally evolve into the intelligent beings we’re supposed to be. and….for being so ‘informed’ your grammar and spelling are pathetic. another product of our wonderful education system here. 20th in education, first in military spending. see it now?
Eric Garris
May 21st, 2009 at 9:03 am

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The History Channel has disavowed these ads.

These ads were prepared by an advertising agency that does business with the History Channel. We incorrectly posted that these were prepared by the History Channel. The History Channel had nothing to do with these ads. Antiwar.com apologizes for the error.

Statement by the History Channel:

The History Channel has not authorized this advertising campaign. The network is not associated with these ads, nor does The History Channel condone the content of these ads. Anyone familiar with the HISTORY brand knows that this is not in line with the message of the network or our programs. We are asking every site that has posted the ads to remove them immediately, and to correct any statements saying that this was an actual History advertisement.
liberranter
May 21st, 2009 at 10:46 am

Actually, even the remaining older generation of Germans today (those few left alive who served in the Wehrmacht/Luftwaffe/Kriegsmarine and even Waffen SS during the War) often become incredibly defensive when the Holocaust or other German atrocities committed during that war come up in conversation. A typical rejoinder goes something like “But America and Britain bombed our cities indiscriminately and killed many innocent civilians too, so your hands aren’t clean either! Who are you to judge ME?” While certainly a true statement, this straw man response clearly serves as psychological band-aid for those “Good Germans” who were made to realize in the end that they had sold their souls and their birthright to the Devil for a mess of pottage and that they cannot rationalize their acquiescence to Nazi violence.

I strongly suspect that many Ameri[k]ans will react in a similar manner in the future once the Red, White, and Blue Empire collapses and its “leadership” –along with those military personnel and civilians who served as their armed muscle– is called to account.
liberranter
May 21st, 2009 at 10:52 am

The rest of the world doesn’t “hate” the United States; it hates the United States GOVERNMENT, and justifiably so. The people of the United States ARE NOT the government of the United States, and most of the rest of the world actually has sense enough to realize this. Only brainwashed Ameri[k]an “patriots” can’t seem to grasp this kindergarten-simple concept.
js
May 21st, 2009 at 10:56 am

But the education system is good at indoctrinating with state and military propaganda, thus breeding passionate defenders of all it’s atrocities. This comment thread is ample demonstration of that.
liberranter
May 21st, 2009 at 11:04 am

This is in no way surprising, as the History Channel (known to some of us as the “Hitler Channel” for its incessant, almost obsessive coverage of this creature’s life and deeds) is one of the most patently statist media outlets in the realm of cable broadcasting. I cannot even remotely imagine them deviating so far from the officially-sanctioned “Court History” as to rock the boat with such provocative ads as these.

Thanks, Eric, for setting the record straight.
Andy
May 21st, 2009 at 11:46 am

I’m talking about post-war Germany and its open admission of guilt, paying of compensation etc, – in contrast to an essentialy unrepentent, on all societal levels, Japan.
Andy
May 21st, 2009 at 11:47 am

Speak for yourself.
cancelHoo
May 21st, 2009 at 12:04 pm

Wow, thank you Hal for some common sense. I happen to be a pacifist by design but am aware that sometimes my role is as a devil’s advocate. The kind of person that claims Truman is a war criminal isn’t far from the zealotry of isolationists before WWII. Thank goodness no one listened to them, even if I would be counted among them. There is actually a rational middle between hawks and doves.
Carolyn Raz
May 21st, 2009 at 2:40 pm

Thank you, KingClyde. I’ve read tomes about the War in the Pacific and you’re right on. It took the second bomb for Hirohito to finally realize the war had to end. Maybe these bleeding hearts who think we were wrong should do some reading and learn a thing or two.
Carolyn Raz
May 21st, 2009 at 2:52 pm

Thank you, Bill. You’re recap was absolutely right on!
GW
May 21st, 2009 at 11:24 pm

So we should follow your Republican propaganda that justifies the Iraq war?

Look in the mirror and realize how insanely gullible you are.

Take responsibility. You train a bunch of thugs in Afganistan to fight the cold war for you,
and they turn on you and kill thousands of innocents in the Twin Towers,
and you attack Iraq who absolutely had nothing to do with it.

This is not propaganda, this is the sad truth. Somewhere in the last 8 years you became the bad guys mom warned you about.
Lear K
May 22nd, 2009 at 6:41 am

We were assured that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction,and possibly nuclear bombs ready to luanch against the US ,from thousands of miles away,but how we were not told,and we were told if the US did not act quickly the consqunce would be a” mashroom clouds over DC”.

By way the history chnnel quite often broadcast shows that undoubtly were made by the Pentagon,and repeat shows about the evil of ,the New Hitler,Sadam .Shows whose objective is to justify the US aggression against Iraq,and its continued occupation of that country.
Andy
May 22nd, 2009 at 4:56 pm

Of course if American troops hadn’t been stationed in the Philippines in the first place…..
Lester Ness
May 23rd, 2009 at 1:31 am

Note that the Soviets did invade Manchuria, fight there. Changchun, former Jap. colonial capital, has a prominent memorial, listing the names of the Soviet paratroopers who died liberating the city. Stalin occupied the region for 2 years, disassembled the J. factories and moved them to Russia.

Lester Ness, former Changchun resident
Lester Ness
May 23rd, 2009 at 1:33 am

Could you live without hating some body or other?

Lester Ness
Kunming
China
Lester Ness
May 23rd, 2009 at 1:38 am

“Furthermore the Japanese actually had exploded their own atomic bomb….”

The Japanese did a fair amount of experimenting with dirty bombs, but were nowhere near a nuclear explosive.

After the war, the scientists of Unit 731, who did all the horrid human experiments with dirty bombs, germ warfare, gas warfare, etc., were not prosecuted. Instead, they were given a free ride, in exchange for giving the results of their experiments to the US Army. There is still a Unit 731 veterans association, making excuses for their crimes, etc.

If, by chance, you can visit a museum in Unit 731’s old headquarters, its rather horrific story paid for by the current Japanese government.

Lester Ness
Kunming
China
Lester Ness
May 23rd, 2009 at 1:40 am

Pretty recently, its been revealed that Togo was asked by Macarthur to take the blame for the war in order to save the emperor’s life. The officer who delivered the message to him in his cell has recently told his account.

Lester Ness
Kunming
China
Lester Ness
May 23rd, 2009 at 1:45 am

You will find lots of disagreement, whatever subject in history you read.

Lester Ness
Kunming
China
Lester Ness
May 23rd, 2009 at 1:49 am

So when were you in? I served 1971-76. I’m fairly sure I was on Yankee Station when GWB was a drunken deserter.

And it was all for the national vanity. Vast numbers killed for vanity, just like in Iraq and Afghanistan now.

Lester Ness
Kunming
China
Lester Ness
May 23rd, 2009 at 1:52 am

Well, the PRC government declined reparations, around 1960, I think. The commies would like to forget the past, think only of the future. (They have lots to forget, too.) But it’ll take at least a century, I judge, for Chinese people to forget. Probably longer for the Koreans.

Lester Ness
Kunming
PR China
Lester Ness
May 23rd, 2009 at 1:55 am

According to Baehrens’ bio of Hirohito, almost everyone involved in planning the Pearl Harbor attack knew privately that war with the US would be disastrous, but no one had the guts to say so in the planning meetings. Probably the “secret history” of the Bush admin will have lots of similar stories.

Lester Ness
Kunming
China
Lester Ness
May 23rd, 2009 at 1:56 am

I doubt private schools would be any less chauvinistic. Probably more so. That is the temper of our time.

Lester Ness
Kunming
China
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