Why Not Kill All Gazans?
Reading the justifications that Israeli supporters are offering for the IDF assault, I don’t see any rationale being offered that would not justify killing everyone in Gaza.
If a single rocket is fired from Gaza territory, does that mean that everyone living in that area has automatically forfeited their life? The New York Times notes today that Israeli supporters believe that “the issue of proportionality… is a false construct because comparing death tolls offers no help in measuring justice and legitimacy.”
And we are obliged to accept whatever exonerations are offered by the IDF and their apologists. Max Blumenthal had an excellent piece on Huffington Post on the response to the initial IDF attacks on Gaza:
Almost as soon as the first Israeli missile struck the Gaza Strip, a veteran cheering squad suited up to support the home team. “Israel is so scrupulous about civilian life,” Charles Krauthammer claimed in the Washington Post. Echoing Krauthammer, Alan Dershowitz called the Israeli attack on Gaza, “Perfectly ‘Proportionate.’” And in the New York Times, Israeli historian Benny Morris described his country’s airstrikes as “highly efficient.” …. “It was Israel at its best,” Yossi Klein Halevi declared in the New Republic.
The cheering by Bush and top Republicans and Democrats for the bombing of the Gaza concentration camp epitomizes how the American political leadership has learned nothing since 9/11. The United States will be blamed for atrocities committed with American weapons and planes.
[This comment is also posted at my blog here]
Lear K
January 6th, 2009 at 10:52 am
How would the so called “civilized world” react,and what an outcry if these words were spoken by a Muslim religious figure !?
Eliyahu advocates carpet bombing Gaza
All civilians living in Gaza are collectively guilty for Kassam attacks on Sderot, former Sephardi chief rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu has written in a letter to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert.
Eliyahu ruled that there was absolutely no moral prohibition against the indiscriminate killing of civilians during a potential massive military offensive on Gaza aimed at stopping the rocket launchings.
The letter, published in Olam Katan [Small World], a weekly pamphlet to be distributed in synagogues nationwide this Friday, cited the biblical story of the Shechem massacre (Genesis 34) and Maimonides’ commentary (Laws of Kings 9, 14) on the story as proof texts for his legal decision.
“If they don’t stop after we kill 100, then we must kill a thousand,” said Shmuel Eliyahu. “And if they do not stop after 1,000 then we must kill 10,000. If they still don’t stop we must kill 100,000, even a million. Whatever it takes to make them stop.
D
January 6th, 2009 at 11:10 am
Everyone seems to forget one thing – MOST of Palestinian men ARE in fact terrorists. So, who is civilian then? The Hamas leader’s wives that blow themselves and kill innocent people? Or maybe the 14 year old sniper on top of a building left by Hamas militants to shoot everyone he sees?
How would you answer those questions?
Z in Texas
January 6th, 2009 at 11:24 am
D,
You have fallen into the trap of collectivism, my friend. You say, “…MOST Palestinian men ARE in fact terrorists…”
Well that’s just ridiculous. Do you personally know, D, “most” of the Palestinian men? How can you lump millions of individuals into a broad category of “terrorists?” What does the word terrorist mean, anyway? If indiscriminate killing has anything to do with it, look at the IDF and the IAF as the premier terrorists in the region.
The bottom line is this, D. All humans are individuals. It is the nightmare of collectivist thinking that makes it so easy for sanguinary Israeli supporters to blithely insist that “There is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza” because, they think to themselves, “the Palestinians in Gaza are less than human…”
Corkey
January 6th, 2009 at 11:53 am
….The letter, published in Olam Katan [Small World], a weekly pamphlet to be distributed in synagogues nationwide this Friday, cited the biblical story of the Shechem massacre (Genesis 34) and Maimonides’ commentary (Laws of Kings 9, 14) on the story as proof texts for his legal decision…..
I don’t buy this logic because someone by the name of Jesus Christ, who was Jewish, cancelled all these extermination orders when he died on the cross.
RCW
January 6th, 2009 at 11:54 am
Interesting “D” -
You do realize that this is the SAME collectivist rhetoric that Nazi’s employed against the Jews right? Does the irony elude you?
It never fails to amaze me how bitter-sweet human beings are.
Just incredible.
Corkey
January 6th, 2009 at 11:55 am
What would you do if you were the character, Taylor played by Charlton Heston, in the original movie, Planet of the Apes ??? Think about it.
N
January 6th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
Gee, I wonder when the last suicide bombing was? Maybe before the ceasefire that Israel continuously violated by enforcing an ILLEGAL blockade (the blockade which was supposed to be lifted as a CONDITION of the ceasefire)?
Because you are a racist you claim that most Palestinian men are terrorists and then go on to include women and children. Well, the fact is most Israeli citizens are or have been in the Israeli military and have at one point or another in their lives participated in the oppression, ethnic cleansing, genocide, siege, or torture of Palestinians; so I guess that makes them equally fair game.
What is it that makes Israel supporters allergic to truth and reality?
E
January 6th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
D:
Please don’t indulge in language abuse with the word terrorist. Implicit to your comment is that a terrorist is everyone who isn’t you or one of your friends. I’m thinking in the service of respect and politeness you might replace ‘terrorist’ with ’sworn enemy of my tribe’.
Bob Bogus
January 6th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
The United States will be blamed for atrocities committed with American weapons and planes.
At a time when Amerika is tens of trillions in debt, when the people of this country are facing a dire economic situation and most will struggle to stay employed and get by, we have our government masters stealing billions of dollars in taxation and additional debt so the government of Israel will have Amerikan weapons that they will use to kill.
Why on earth do American citizens tolerate this??? What more do we need to have a revolution in this country? The Amerikan government richly deserves to be overthrown.
Empircal Conservative
January 6th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
D —
Your comment was so over the top, I don’t know whether to beleive it represents your true thoughts or not. But if it does, what would your “final solution” be for the Palestinian problem? Congratulations in joining the ranks of the Nazis. Your kind of thinking led to the Holocaust.
January 6, 2008 « Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes?
January 6th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
[...] [...]
Bob
January 6th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
Oh, but Empirical Conservative, don’t you know that Israelis can’t, by their very nature, commit atrocities, nor can their Zionist Christian supporters in America? And just as the lead article on Frontpagemag.com says, “Palestinians kill their own.” So, to sum up: Israelis incapable of evil; Palestinians kill their own.
Life and killing are so much easier when you can simplify as such.
Lear K
January 6th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
But what would the world reaction be if these words were coming from a Muslim scholar?!
AGJ
January 6th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
RCW,
you bring up an excellent point about Nazi rationalizations and explanations for anti-Jewish and anti-Slavic policies during World War II. It is based on seeing human beings as a collective or generalized mass. It is based on a very crude and primitive tribalism. The Israeli rationalizations for the assaults on Gaza are identical to Nazi assaults on Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto. Just imagine Gaza as the Warsaw Ghetto during World War II. Of course, this collectivist mindset is part of human nature and was not invented by the Nazis. The American attitude to Native Americans is identical.
The key component, as you noted, is to see humans as a collective, as a mass, as a tribe. This is psychologically where racial, religious, and ethnic enmity begins. All Native Americans are the same. They are a single, unitary whole, a mass. The only good Indian is a dead Indian. Why? Because they are all the same. They all act the same way. They think the same way. Why not just kill all of them?
The Armenian genocide was motivated by the same idea. Armenians are all Christians and pose a threat to Muslims, to Turks. Therefore, every Armenian Christian is a threat to Muslims. Every Armenian must be killed. The Armenian Genocide occurred because every Armenian was perceived as the same.
The Nazi rationalization for exterminating Jews was that every Jew was the same. If the term “terrorist” had been coined in 1933, the Nazis would have used it to describe all Jews. For Nazis, every Jew was a threat to Germany because every Jew was a Marxist, a Communist, anarchist, a Zionist. That is, every Jew was the same. All Jews are a threat and a danger because they all think the same and believe the same ideas, all of which are threats to Germany. The Nazis used a term like “subversive” or a like term to describe all Jews. All Jews are “subversives”. This mirrors the Israeli rationalization that all Palestinians are “terrorists”.
Where did the term “terrorist” come from? The term was coined to describe Palestinians. Why?
The term achieves several objectives:
1) most importantly, it obfuscates the fact that the Palestinians are fighting to create their own nation, their own homeland or national state. Their struggle is a nationalist struggle, a struggle to achieve statehood like the Israelis themselves did in 1948. Their struggle is one of national “liberation” if you will. But terming them “terrorists” conceals this fact. By the same token, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Mahatma Gandhi are terrorists because they used violence in a conflict over statehood and nationalism.
2) it hides the fact that the so-called terrorism is being conducted to achieve national liberation and freedom from occupation.
The acts committed by Al Qaeda can be more easily explained as terrorism, acts of violence meant to terrorize, to demoralize. But Palestinian violence is meant to achieve national independence and sovereignty, to free themselves from occupation or, as in the case of Gaza, from blockade. The Palestinians are engaged in a nationalist struggle of emancipation.
The term “terrorism” is actually the problem here. When applied to the Palestinian people, it is not an accurate description. When applied to Al Qaeda, it is accurate. But here is the rub. The term “terrorist” was specifically coined and created, if you will, for the purpose of obfuscation.
As you noted, we need to get rid of the stereotypical, racist collectivist thinking. It is a primitive, tribalistic mode of thought that inevitably leads to genocide and extermination. Moreover, using the propagandistic term like “terrorist” does not help us either because, as noted, “terrorism” can be used to describe any action we don’t like. The Israeli use of military forces to indiscriminately kill men, women, and children can be perceived as “state terrorism”.
We have not learned anything from the past. Only to ignore it.
Protogoth
January 6th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
Killing all the Palestinians has always been the plan. Using the Nazi play-book, the Zionists tried to make them run away and never come back, but they were stymied just like the Nazis were by the fact that other countries didn’t want Palestinian refugees any more than the pre-WWII countries wanted German Jewish refugees. The end result will have to be the same as the Israelis will never allow the refugees to return, will never grant them equal rights, and most certainly will never give up the lands and property they have stolen. Since the Palestinians haven’t had the decency to disappear, they will have to be killed.
Teri Scatchard
January 6th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
You can always depend on the stupidity of the American population and the majority of Israelis. These populations have been so DUMB-DOWNED by the ZIONIST controlled media,there really is no hope in any enlightened creative thinking on their part.So another nation,
another group has to assume dominance and get these morally bankrupt, and scummy regimes
out of power PERIOD.
Just ask yourselves who are the aggressors in this world? Who is doing the killing of
innocents? IT’S A NO BRAINER. WE ARE ALL PALESTINIANS !!!
Tim R.
January 6th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
Israel pulled out of Lebannon (as certified by the United Nations) and what did they get for it? Rockets!
Israel complied with United Nations resolutions and pulled out of Gaza in 2005 and what did they get for it? Thousands of rockets from HAMAS! Israel, by brute force, evicted thousands of her own citizens, many of whom were elderly peolple and had been living there for over 30 years. And what do they get for it? Nothing but rockets and people who say it was just done to further isolate Gaza. That is called a “catch -22″ They are damned if they do and damned if they don’t.
And what is this nonsense about “why shouldn’t we just kill all Gazans?” If even ONE innocent Israeli child is killed that is one too many. And if even ONE innnocent Palestinian child is killed that is one too many. ALL human life is sacred. But there is such a concept as self-defense. HAMAS is made up of radical Muslims, the type of guys that would chop any of your heads off in about two seconds. Go ahead, keep sticking up for them. But these are the same type of brutish thugs that would not think twice about cutting off your head if you got on their bad side. They type of guys that want gay people to be stoned to death, women to be chained to the kitchen and popping out babies for their husband who has three or four other wives and will beat the crap out of them or kill them if they get out of line. HAMAS is made up of babaric, Islamic terrorists who will not be happy until ALL JEWS are either killed or removed, not just from Gaza and the West Bank, but from ALL of Israel from the Negev to Tel Aviv and every where in between. Even when that happens it will not satisfy HAMAS. HAMAS will then make sure to destory the more moderate Palestinian Authority and institute a radical Islamic theocracy.
I’m sick and tired of this “blame Israel for everything mentality.” Yes, innocent Paslistinians have died and like I said, their life is just as sacred as any life and it truly does breaks my heart to see it on TV. But what is Israel supposed to do? What would YOU DO?
What would you do if you lived in a town and thousands of rockets had been launched on your town and 17 of your citizens, or better yet, 17 of your friends and family members have been killed? Should you sit back and say, “Oh well it’s only 17 of my friends and family members that have been killed, it could be worse. I guess we should just sit back and do nothing.” What if you had to live in a town where every single day, air-raid sirens would go off and you and your children would have only 30 seconds or so to drop everything you are doing and run to a bomb shelter? What if you had to go through that day after day, week after week? Would you still do nothing?
Sure, there is plenty of blame to go around and I don’t say Israel does not have her share of it, but there are two sides to every story and it seems like most of the folks on this blog will ONLY see things from the Palestinian side and refuse to look at things in a more neutral and objective manner.
paulite
January 6th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
Over 500 Palestinians dead, so many wounded, and the Israelis think it “proportionate” to have a total of eight dead from all those 3,000 rocket attacks? Really?
Ron Paul had it nailed in his column here today. We should avoid foreign entanglements and take care of our country. Pandering to Israel will only bring more people who hate us because of our partnership. Six billion dollars per year could go to Katrina victims, not to help Israel get more weapons.
Does anyone in our government have any common sense whatsoever? Who are the really representing?
Lear K
January 6th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
Peace, Propaganda and the Promised Land: Media & the Israel-Palestine
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6604775898578139565&hl=en
‘Why Not Kill All Gazans?’ « DetainThis
January 6th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
[...] Terrorism, Warmongers, Xenophobes, Zionism by detainthis on January 6th, 2009 By James Bovard ∙ AntiWar Blog ∙ January 6, [...]
Andy
January 6th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
And your “evidence” for this outrageous statement is where?
Steve Hogan
January 6th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
It doesn’t take much web surfing to read the blog reactions from both sides in this conflict. One reality is unavoidable: there is an immeasurable amount of hate for the other group, and for many Palestinians, they include America as their enemy, which is a perfectly reasonable position to hold under the circumstances. Israeli pilots are flying American-made planes and helicopters, dropping American-made bombs, and firing American-made bullets (who says America doesn’t make anything anymore?).
It is our blind obediance to Israel and its interests, even when it conflicts with the security of the United States, that we should all find appalling. Our leadership is forfeiting our security and spending money we can ill-afford – all to make us less safe. Isn’t this the polar opposite of what our government’s purpose is?
Make no mistake: Israel’s collective punishment of the poor and wretched Gazans and our slavish obedience to Israel’s every move, no matter how outrageous and immoral, is going to haunt us someday soon. If we don’t feel the blowback in our lifetimes, our children and grandchildren will. These people have very long memories and lots of patience.
Brad Smith
January 6th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
“What if you had to live in a town where every single day, air-raid sirens would go off and you and your children would have only 30 seconds or so to drop everything you are doing and run to a bomb shelter? What if you had to go through that day after day, week after week? Would you still do nothing”?
Do you realize your quote works just as well and actually more appropriately for Gaza. So as a person living in Gaza I might decide to join Hamas and lob some rockets back. Or I might use the brain that God gave me whether I was living in Israel or Gaza and demand my government stop the nonsense. Of course a third choice would be to get out. However, that only works if you live in Israel. A dog backed into a corner will bite and Hamas is in that corner and being treated like dogs.
I do have an objective manner. I believe that they are both filled with hatred and unwilling to stop the bloodshed. Therefore the US should wash their hands of the whole mess, before it brings down my country and my familly. You however, as far as I have seen, take the side of Israel in every debate. So when you call for neutrality it comes off as more than a little hipocritical. If you were truly neutral you wouldn’t slant your every post with distortions and misconceptions.
Peace!
Lear K
January 6th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
The BBC: Eyeless in Gaza
http://atheonews.blogspot.com/2009/01/bbc-eyeless-in-gaza.html
masmanz
January 6th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
Excellent article, however I object to the way you have mentioned 9/11. Should we always be motivated by fear? The motivation should be peace, justice, and love of other human beings. It is unlikely that 9/11 will ever be repeated again, it is our values and not the fear of 9/11 which should guide our actions. If the fear of terrorist attack is the motivating factor we have more reasons to be afraid of Israel then all the rest of the terrorists combined.
Karen
January 6th, 2009 at 4:17 pm
Proportionate, my foot! Israelis are “terrorized” by Palestinian “rockets”; rockets that are “so powerful” they leave a hole that could fit inside most of the potholes I see on U.S. city streets. Do people get injured or killed by these rockets? Sure, but they also get injured and killed by 4th of July fireworks.
On the other side of the equation, Palestinians have to leave their windows open because the 1,000 pound bombs Israel is dropping on them create a vacuum that will blow out windows, sending glass shards in all directions. When they venture outside, they are likely to be find a building entirely missing and a huge crater in its place.
Palestinians have light weapons; Israel has depleted uranium, white phosphorus, and now a new toy courtesy of US called DIME, dense insert metal explosive, which if it doesn’t outright kill you, according to Wikipedia will cause cancer.
I suspect if the wind weren’t blowing their way, the Israeli would have long ago dropped The Bomb on Gaza.
just me
January 6th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
side note but I love how the neocons use the “mexico’ analogy… When of course, they firmly advocate a. letting in all mexicans come here b. essentially dissolving our border. Shouldn’t israel be enriched by diversity and mass immigration too?
Henry Clemens
January 6th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
The Bush regime, after telling one bald-faced lie after another, led America into two unnecessary, unjustified, immoral and brutal wars of aggression in Iraq and Afghanistan. So far, hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians have died as a result of those two aggressive invasions. The current regime in Israel, with the full backing of its allies in the Congress and the Bush regime, has now waged two unnecessary, unjustified, immoral and brutally aggressive invasions of its own with similarly horrific results for innocent civilian populations. So, tell me again now, just which nations presently pose a clear and present danger to world peace and world security? Just which nations of the world now constitute a very real “axis of evil?” And, for those who think that Mr. Obama will “change” America’s belligerent, militaristic and imperialistic foreign policy, I warn you: expect to be very disappointed. God help us all.
GM
January 6th, 2009 at 6:29 pm
I wish Hamas would fight the Occupation with 100% nonviolent tactics, but the rocket attacks were about as deadly as fireworks. I hear that something like 19 Israelis have been killed by the rocket fire over the last eight years (btw, many of those 19 were Israeli Arabs denied basic protections afforded Israeli Jews like bomb shelters). Of course over those eight years, before the recent killing of more than 500 Palestinians, the Israelis racked up a huge Palestinian death toll from bombings and invasions and the activities of the Israeli secret police. Then there is the genocidal-like tactic of blockading and economically strangling Gaza for the past two years, and the continuation and expansion of the Occupation. The rocket fire is merely a pretext for the Israelis to once again invade Gaza, and Hamas, unfortunately, fell into the trap.
The antiwar movement needs to makes its own assessment of Hamas apart from the propaganda of the War Party and Israel. Hamas violence (including the ugly tactic of suicide bombings) has in recent years diminished considerablely, and the organization clearly has a moderate wing that could be engaged to abandon violenct resistence to the Occupation and pave the way finally for a peace settlement.
GM
January 6th, 2009 at 6:32 pm
I wish Hamas would fight the occupation with 100% nonviolent tactics, but the rocket attacks were about as deadly as fireworks. I hear that something like 19 Israelis have been killed by the rocket fire over the last eight years (btw, many of those 19 were Israeli Arabs denied basic protections afforded Israeli Jews like bomb shelters). Of course over those eight years, before the recent killing of more than 500 Palestinians, the Israelis racked up a huge Palestinian death toll from bombings and invasions and the activities of the Israeli secret police. Then there is the genocidal-like tactic of blockading and economically strangling Gaza for the past two years, and the continuation and expansion of the Occupation.
Ira Epstein
January 6th, 2009 at 6:36 pm
The Israeli government is doing to the people of Gaza what the Nazi government did to the people of the Warsaw Ghetto.
Corkey
January 6th, 2009 at 6:36 pm
I want ALL our tax money back. There are whole bunch of recently unemployed and financially ruined people in this country who could make better use of this tax money than to send it to these 2 perpetually battling groups. I say pull the plug on all of them and make them raise taxes in their own countries to pay for all their own misery. Anyone who objects is free to leave here and go serve OVER THERE.
Cpt. Candor
January 6th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
Henry Clemens said:
“The current regime in Israel, with the full backing of its allies in the Congress and the Bush regime, has now waged two unnecessary, unjustified, immoral and brutally aggressive invasions of its own with similarly horrific results for innocent civilian populations.”
Sounds an awful lot like what the RAF did to civilian-filled German cities during WWII, along with what the US did to the Japanese, and to those of you who like drawing parallels between “Nazis” and everyone and everything you don’t like, get your heads out of the sand. The US has been on the same big, long, Zoroastrian crusade to Save The World (or at least destroy it in the process) ever since the Civil War, with prolonged pauses to re-arm, re-group and re-select targets, commonly mislabled as periods of “peace.”
Joey
January 6th, 2009 at 6:50 pm
Amen. I couldn’t have said it better myself.
ingrate
January 6th, 2009 at 7:00 pm
Lear K.,
Great video. I bought the DVD a couple of years ago.
Here is another online video that does an outstanding job of presenting the situation in Palestine.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2451908450811690589
jack
January 6th, 2009 at 7:12 pm
I argue with many of the Israeli supporters at several blogs. Most advocate at the least ethnic cleansing and many genocide and atomic warfare. It makes you want to take a shower when you are done with them. Many children in Gaza are also dying because of the blockade. The Warsaw ghetto also had a blockade which killed a large precentage of the residents. Hitler did that in the fog of war. the Israeli’s are doing it in broad daylight.
Steve Hogan
January 6th, 2009 at 8:15 pm
Even a thug like Hugo Chavez recognizes Israel’s barbaric behavior:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7814857.stm
We live in interesting times.
Lear K
January 6th, 2009 at 8:19 pm
Tim,
your argument and assertions are Ad nauseam.You keep repeating yourself over and over,bringing up the same old tired unfounded and imaginative allegations.
Maybe you should check these links.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1180527966693&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull
http://haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=801449&contrassID=19
Lear K
January 6th, 2009 at 8:30 pm
“Yes, innocent Paslistinians have died and like I said, their life is just as sacred as any life and it truly does breaks my heart to see it on TV. But what is ”
This reminds one of the person who always fulminating about a certain group of people all the times,but would say his best frind is from that group.It is totaly bogus .
Lear K
January 6th, 2009 at 8:42 pm
“The term “Islamofascist” is utterly without meaning, but packed with emotional explosives. It is a propaganda creation worthy Dr. Goebbels, and the latest expression of the big lie technique being used by neocons in Washington’s propaganda war against its enemies in the Muslim World.
This ugly term was probably first coined in Israel – as was the other hugely successful propaganda term, “terrorism” – to dehumanize and demonize opponents and deny them any rational political motivation, hence removing any need to deal with their grievances and demands.”
http://www.lewrockwell.com/margolis/margolis46.html
Jim Griffin
January 6th, 2009 at 8:50 pm
I could go on all night about Israeli’s aggression but one thing that stuck out for me is–how in God’s name is Benny Morris allowed to continue publishing at all?! Did he not advocate preemptive nuclear strikes in the NYT a few months ago. Why do they continue to allow themselves as a platform for his insanity?!
Lear K
January 6th, 2009 at 9:04 pm
But if you have your land stolen from you,your people driven from their land ,and were made refugees,terrorised,massacered,tormented,opperesed,exploited,their homes demolished,their centuries old olive trees and fields destroyed as well as your lifehood,their water sources confiscated,and so on for over sixty years while the world kept silent.Wouldn’t you be filled with hatred towards your tormentors and oppersors?
John Lowell
January 6th, 2009 at 9:18 pm
What is so noticeable here is the utter hopelessness behind the bulk of these comments, the same powerlessness one might have felt in another day having been plucked at 2:00 AM from one’s home in Moscow and driven to the Lubianka, having been interrogated, beaten and placed in an isolation cell awaiting even more of the same. I share that sense of hopelessness.
Short of a public uprising nothing will ever be done to end the ownership of America’s foreign policy by AIPAC. Short of a public uprising the weight of American power and influence will never be brought to bear on the side of justice and balance in the Middle East. Short of a public uprising there will always be war in the Middle East because the present and prospective governments of Isreal have no genuine interest in peace. Short of a publc uprising, AIPAC, in its own environments, will always experience vindication and tighten the grip of its tentacles on the throat of American democracy. Short of a public uprising, the American people, 71% of whom in a recent poll favored a balanced Middle Eastern foreign policy, will never, ever see their aspirations realized. Short of a public uprising …
Tim R.
January 6th, 2009 at 9:22 pm
Lear K,
Oh, you must mean the way the Arabs destroyed and desecrated every single Synagogue in the west bank when they controlled it prior to 1967. Or perhaps you refer to more recent times when they desecrated Joseph’s tomb or destroyed an ancient synagogue in Jericho. Or perhaps you are refering to all of the graves that were desecrated and overturned in the Jewish Mount of Olives cemetary when they controlled the area. ( I was THERE and I personally saw that many of the graves are still overturned.)
There is plenty of blame to go around buddy, unfortunatly, you are only looking at things from one side, therefore, your vision is somewhat skewed.
Tim R.
January 6th, 2009 at 9:24 pm
Well, on your side note: I think our bordered with Mexico should be sealed. Our borders, language and culture are being destroyed by mass immigration and it will ruin our nation.
Obvious Guy Says
January 6th, 2009 at 10:12 pm
The occupying nation can NEVER be a victim of anything that comes from the occupied.
Obvious Guy Says
January 6th, 2009 at 10:14 pm
Oh the feeble mind of a racist.
Obvious Guy Says
January 6th, 2009 at 10:16 pm
Let’s be fair now. That’s not really true. While they are treating the Palestinians horribly, they are not stooping to that the level of the Nazis.
Obvious Guy Says
January 6th, 2009 at 10:19 pm
It all begins and ends with the mass media. North American media outfits are not doing their jobs – being impartial and telling the news and letting the viewer decide. They have decided that we want the Israeli viewpoint and that’s that. Israeli media is doing a better job in this regard and that really says it all.
Qwerty
January 6th, 2009 at 11:04 pm
Actually, it IS like the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, the Jewish Intifada. The Jews were corralled into a tiny, dense, highly populated squalid area, deprived of food, medicine, water and basic necessities, not unlike Gaza and its siege. The German SS officers declared that they were “attacked unprovoked”. During the Uprising, the attackers ducked into residential alleyways, hid behind windows, etc. to lob small explosives and sniper fire. The Germans sent in tanks and thousands of soldiers to burn the buildings down, including religious buildings, schools, etc. Women and children were indiscriminately killed as “collateral damage”.
Oh, there is ONE huge difference – the departing SS officer in charge wanted to call in planes to bombard the Ghetto but the incoming officer deemed it too much. The irony!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising
Mooser
January 6th, 2009 at 11:27 pm
If I was an Israeli I would try to raise the Jewish birthrate to at least the replacement level. I really don’t know what they can do about Jews marrying out of the faith, or just leaving Judaism.
I just don’t see how a “nation” (the Zionist Jews) who cannot even raise their own population to the replacement rate can possibly win by killing off their opponents. Why don’t they try screwing each other instead of their neighbors.
Judaism is a great religion. I’ve always liked it, (except for the circumcision, but what the hell could I do?) but c’mon guys, it’s a really crappy basis for a state. Can’t eat major sources of protein, gotta go through a whole rigamarole before you can make a new soldier or two, and we had to steal our country from others to get it.
We should have stuck with the religion, and tried to get more sex into it. Mostly, I just feel sorry for the poor schlamazels the Zionists conned into being their cannon fodder and indentured labor. I can pass for ashkenazi, so I would have done alright, but.. wait a minute, you don’t think that circumcision has anything to do with the low birth rate? I hear they are really thorough about it over there.
Tim R.
January 6th, 2009 at 11:56 pm
Most Palistinian men are not terrorists. But most of them are certainly sympathetic to and supporters of terrorists. A terrorist is one who purposefully and willfully targets innocent people for death and destruction in order to acheive a political goal. HAMAS according to that definition ( and I might add according to the American, British, French, Canadian, and numerous other governments) IS INDEED a terrorist organization. And how do I know that most( though of course not all) Palestinians are sympathetic to and supporters of these terrorists? Simple: They voted for them!
Tim R.
January 7th, 2009 at 12:00 am
Protogoth,
If you are of white European ancestry I assume you also are in favor of expelling all white people from the United States of America, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand and returning all of the land that was stolen to the natives. In addition, I am sure you believe that the United States should return most of the southwestern United States to Mexico. Correct?
Andrew P
January 7th, 2009 at 12:06 am
If Israel can’t stomach killing all of Gaza (Jews are too liberal to do this), perhaps they should tighten the noose until all the Palestinians leave. Israel should clear everything within a mile of the Egypt border, which means razing Rafah. Then the monster bulldozers should move in and dig a half-mile wide trench all the way to the sea, and once dug, flood it with seawater. That will flood all the smuggling tunnels and create a defendable moat to cut all supply lines from Egypt. At the same time, Israel should declare an absolute siege, and allow no food, water, power, or supplies of any kind into Gaza. The Palestinians should be given only one way out – a free, one-way trip to a far away land such as Somalia, courtesy of the IDF. They could also be deported to Lebanon, but that is not ideal since Lebanon borders Israel, and the Palestinians will still be able to fight from there. I figure most Palestinains will leave within 2 years of a total siege. Only perhaps 50,000-100,000 die-hards will remain, and the IDF will have to invade for a final battle and kill them all.
Tim R.
January 7th, 2009 at 12:32 am
With all the talk of Gaza, and the constant excoriation and demonization of Israel, does anybody happen to remember a place called Darfur?
It’s interesting because people seem to go totally crazy when Palestinains are killed in Gaza. But what about Darfur? Are they less human? Do their lives matter less? Now don’t get me wrong, the death of even one civilian is one too many. But how many Palestinians have been killed in recent days? About 500. And according to estimates only 25% of those killed have been civilians. So we are talking about 125 people. Again, let me clearly emphasize the point that 125 is 125 too many. The loss of even one innocent civilian is one too many. However, let us put this in perspective shall we?
According to UN estimates, in the last five years of the conflict, 300,000 innocent civilians have been killed in Darfur. Let me repeat that: THREE HUNDRED THOUSAND! The coflict has not ended. It continues. Members of the Sudanese government have been formally charged by the International Criminal Court for crimes against humanity but still the carnage goes on.
So why do I bring this up? Because I find it very interesting that the deaths of 125 innocent Palestinians ( as terrible as that is) causes people to go absolutely crazy with outgrage against Israel. But the deaths of THREE HUNDRED THOUSAND innocent people in Darfur does not seem to casue much of a stir. I wonder why? Sudan is a Muslim nation. And we can’t blame Israel, the Jews, or the United States for the situation there. Is that why people don’t care as much? Muslims all over the world are screaming and yelling and going off on their screeds against Israel. But where is there anger and outrage at the goverment of Al-Bashir and where is their sympathy for the 300,000 dead in Darfur? Maybe I am being too cynical but it seems to me that since they can’t blame the Jews for it or Israel, and Bashir is a fellow Muslim, they don’t really give a damn.
A C
January 7th, 2009 at 1:28 am
Tim R, you state “A terrorist is one who purposefully and willfully targets innocent people for death and destruction in order to acheive a political goal.”
What is the political goal of Israel in its massacre of innocent Palestinians?
Does that not make the Israeli military assault terrorism?
Do not the majority of Israelis support the attack on Gaza?
By your definition, are not most Israelis then supporters of this state terrorism?
Both sides have violated International Law. The legitimate movement is to stop the carnage. Has Israel benefited from 60 years of believeing force can resolve this conflict?
subHuman
January 7th, 2009 at 1:36 am
Every sortie by the Nazis F16 cost a cool million, America doesn’t need socialized medicare!
Mankind’s greatest danger is religious lunatics from all kinds of cults.
A C
January 7th, 2009 at 2:05 am
Tim R, it is also important to recognize that the Israelis did not merely leave Gaza. The absence of Israelis from Gaza allowed the conversion of Gaza into a concentration camp. This was a deliberatly engineered humanitarian crisis aimed at undermining the governance of Hamas.
It was a form of economic warfare through the collective punishment of a trapped population. That is why the rocket attacks continued.
If Israeli officials were sincere in engaging in establishing a two state solution, they would not implement policies such as the blockade.
R. Nelson
January 7th, 2009 at 2:15 am
Whack-a-Mole!
A C
January 7th, 2009 at 2:36 am
Corkey, unfortunately, Joe Biden has committed over $1 billion of U.S. taxpayer funds to support and re-arm the Saakashvili government and Georgian military.
It seems both the Bush Administration and Obama Administration are more interested in foreign situations than domestic needs.
So much for government for the people…..
A C
January 7th, 2009 at 3:07 am
Forums such as this one are crucial for the exchange of public information. An informed public is essential to establish the foundation for change. I understand your frustration but education through the exchange of information and through debate is important and can facilitate the gradual transformation of situations. Change effected through political lobbying and legal avenues is preferable to revolution for obvious reasons. We only have to look at the success of the Israel lobby. We just need to be as determined and influential as their lobbyists. Often they dedicate years to achieving their political goals. Lack of coordinated resistance (particularly public information) permits the attainment of their objectives.
OGS’s observations are correct regarding Israeli influence in the media. Who controls the media largely controls public opinion. Intelligence organizations/Law enforcement agencies can, if motivated, take action against individuals or organizations involved in political activities that serve foreign interests at the expense of national security.
The question is why don’t they? It is known that Israelis tried to infilitrate ASIO in Australia. Their influence may not be confined to the White House and the Pentagon.
All the best.
Brad Smith
January 7th, 2009 at 4:32 am
“There is plenty of blame to go around buddy, unfortunatly, you are only looking at things from one side, therefore, your vision is somewhat skewed”. Ditto!
Tim, here’s your chance! Show us some of your “neutral and objective manner”. Please site some examples of what you believe that Israel has done wrong and a few things that Palestine has done right. Try for once to put yourself in the shoes of the Palestinians instead of an Israelies.
Peace!
Corkey
January 7th, 2009 at 4:33 am
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/01/06/monitor/entry4702522.shtml
Doesn’t the above story link seem a bit odd and contrived ? I didn’t vote for Obama but now Al Qaeda is blaming him for Gaza and he isn’t even in office yet ?
It sounds more like a Dick Cheney press release for a WWE story line. Nothing like writing the news before it happens. The mainstream press really sucks as they don’t verify anything they print. I want to know where this story REALLY came from. I say its BS.
GM
January 7th, 2009 at 4:38 am
Much of the problem is the Israelis and their supporters are caught up in their own propaganda. By demonizing and dehumanizing the other side as “terrorist, allows you to commit war crimes and abuse human rights endlessly without a guilty conscience. In this sense, the comparison of the Israelis to the Nazis is fair.
abraham
January 7th, 2009 at 5:01 am
Not yet at least. Do we want to wait until they start shipping them off in cargo trains to concentration camps before we stop them?
I saw pictures today of dead toddlers buried in rubble up to their necks (angryarab.blogspot.com). I think we’ve reached the terminus. This is genocide.
abraham
January 7th, 2009 at 5:01 am
The end of America, and thus Israel, will not come too soon.
Elaine Meinel Supkis
January 7th, 2009 at 5:12 am
From my blog:
Russia took over Poland during the Napoleonic wars due to Poland siding rather enthusiastically with Napoleon and then allowing him to make a sneak attack on Russia. Poland is one of many nations that is a road between competing imperial powers and gets run over regularly. The Lowlands are similar. So is the Middle East. Jews in Russia could not, like the Poles or the Ukrainians, agitate for their own homelands because they were outnumbered by other ethnic groups seeking to alienate themselves from all outside controls.
So many Jews did one of two things: they either were for international unity systems like the International or they were for finding a Jewish-majority homeland and the Zionists selected Palestine as the potential homeland. This is how the Zionist movement was launched.
The debate between the Internationalists and the Zionists raged long and loud. The first Zionist systems set up in the Palestinian lands were communist Zionist collectives which are called ‘Kibbutzim’. These were radical places with many rules that were utterly contrary to classical Judaism. The founders of these collectives, coming from Jews in Russia who were forbidden to run farms, focused on farming. Also, they wanted to prove that they were better farmers than the Palestinians who actually lived in this region. To this day, the Jews in Israel preen themselves on making the land ‘green’ even as this is rapidly destroying the water systems in the same way, the US farmers are destroying the water systems and poisoning the lands in the Western US.
Indeed, one of the biggest lines put out by the US itself to justify the removal and crushing of all native Indian societies in the West was, they were not using the land properly. And the new pioneers were superior caretakers. Even farming communities of Indians who had over a thousand years of farming in arid climates were pushed unceremoniously aside. Like the Palestinian natives, US Indians in the Southwest were superb at growing things while using virtually no water.
Today, we see in Israel, the Jews chopping down olive trees and orange trees because they are ‘in the way’ and ‘not efficient producers’ and replacing these with water-hungry crops or trees. Of course, the new system is to drip-water them but this is still destroying the water table and introducing more and more salts into the soil that produced olives and oranges for centuries with no watering at all.
Brendan
January 7th, 2009 at 6:00 am
LOL at TimR. America has prospered most when there is a steady stream of immigration. I find your assertion that our language and culture are being destroyed laughable. The same things were said of the Irish, Italian, Polish immigrants back in the day, yet America prospered. Immigrants from Spanish countries DO integrate. They bring pieces of their culture and mix it with ours. Hence the term of America being the great melting pot. And before you get all into the evils of illegals taking jobs from regular Americans TimR, do you know what kind of jobs are available to Spanish immigrants with minimal command of English? They get to slaughter chickens, pick produce in the fields, work in industrial laundry facilities to cite a few examples. IS that a job YOU would want? If a Mexican wants to come here and make less then minimum wage illegally working a crap job here so that he and his family can have a shot at something better then a lifetime of living in squalor and they do it without breaking any other laws, then I say bravo.
GM
January 7th, 2009 at 6:15 am
A big part of the problem is Israel is a modern day Sparta as the government forces the entire Israeli Jewish population into its military. In the military, young Israeli Jews are taught to be killing machines, and they are also indoctrinated to view Palestinians and Arabs in general as the enemy and as “terrorists.” Further, the military mindset is that force is the solution to problems, that might makes right. This mentality obviously doesn’t lead easily to moral questioning or peaceful inclinations.
Lawrence
January 7th, 2009 at 7:45 am
Notice that Tim pulls out one of his typical off-the-mark analogies. He doesn’t seem to realize that the Israeli land-grab is not mere artifact of the past. It is taking place on an ongoing basis every day in Palestine. The West Bank and other Palestinian territories are being carved up by encroaching, tax-subsidized Israeli settlements populated anti-Arab racist zealots — many from the good ‘ol USA. Daily, new restrictions block off Arabs from their farms with walls, and new settlements carve into additional territories. Take a look at my YouTube documentary on this “Wall of Shame,” Tim, and then come back with your nonsense: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1NZGI02WkI
Lear K
January 7th, 2009 at 7:59 am
Tim,
Israel was born out terrorism,its leaders were confessed terrorists.
“The Encyclopedia of the Palestine Problem, available in most university libraries, documents from British records more than five hundred violent or terrorist incidents against Palestinians and the British occupation between 1939 and 1948. These included bombings, booby traps and landmines, kidnappings and torture of prisoners, bank robberies, murders of Arabs, and assassinations of police and British officials. 2
Chief terrorists were David Ben-Gurion, Menachem Begin, Yitzhak Shamir and later, Ariel Sharon. Begin headed Irgun, and Shamir led the Stern Gang. They cooperated intimately with the highest political body of the Zionist establishment, the Jewish Agency, and the popular Zionist resistance army, Hagana. Ben-Gurion headed Hagana and later the Jewish Agency. 3
http://www.rense.com/general81/tedp.htm
Most Israelis voted for them overwhlmingly.
Lawrence
January 7th, 2009 at 8:01 am
By the way, Tim. This evening an armed goon will accompany me to your residence with a realtor to transfer ownership of your home to me. Based on your comment, apparently you won’t mind the transfer. Once again, this is happening daily. Put your money where your mouth is.
John Lowell
January 7th, 2009 at 8:06 am
AC,
With all respect, I think we have run out of parliamentary means in dealing with this problem and I would balk at emulating AIPAC which seems to me a refutation of everything to which we are committed here. Lobbying, in my view, should be outlawed. But where that is not possible – and in our lifetimes it will not be possible in the United States – an end to this practice will and can be brought about only through extra-parliamentary devices. The old one having been abrogated in the most important of senses, we need a new constitution, a new beginning. A system that has allowed such abuses as to bring about its own destruction requires replacement from the outside, not accomodation.
You use the term “revolution” to describe the alternative to education and lobbying as the method of choice. I use the term “uprising” and in doing so in no way make a call for violence but rather for the use of direct action, that is to say mass demonstrations and the general strike. A case in point would be that seen in Ukraine in the middle years of this decade.
I have not voted since 1992, realizing that in one way or another I would make myself complicit in one venial practice or another. I’ve had enough of the kind of elections our system so proudly boasts. It’s more than plain what they have to offer. You’re looking at it in Iraq and Gaza and in the abortion mills and research laboratories that have so befouled this land. Enough.
With every good wish.
Lear K
January 7th, 2009 at 8:40 am
Tim R,
Here some thing to think about,
Travesty of Tolerance on Display in Jerusalem
Museum lays waste to ancient Muslim cemetery
“The Israeli Supreme Court’s approval last week of the building of a Jewish Museum of Tolerance over an ancient Muslim cemetery in Jerusalem is the latest in a series of legal and physical assaults on Islamic holy places since Israel’s founding in 1948″
This was offically sanctioned by Israel highest court just few months ago!
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/cook.php?articleid=13722
Lear K
January 7th, 2009 at 8:45 am
“Some, such as the 900-year-old Hittin mosque built by Saladin in the Galilee region, have been fenced off and left to crumble. Others are used by rural Jewish communities as animal sheds. And yet more have been converted into discos, bars or nightclubs, including the Dahir al Umar mosque – now the Dona Rosa restaurant – in the former Palestinian village of Ayn Hawd.”
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/cook.php?articleid=13722
Mooser
January 7th, 2009 at 8:51 am
Well, lemme tell you something: I am an American Jew, and no goddammed Israeli or befuddled Rabbi is ever, ever, ever gonna tell me what to do!
If it comes to that, I’ll take a little dip in the Jordan, and arise from the water a Christian. Whadayou gonna do then, assholes?
And if the Christians aren’t baptising that day, I’m sure the Moslems will have my, and I’ll be glad to join! No more than one wife tho, guys, I couldn’t take it.
So, why doesn’t some ardent Zionist tell us, now that we are in the twenty-first-and-a-half Century, who are the Jews? Can you identify us by our genes? Our Noses?
Judaism is my religion, but my soul does not belong to the Jews. It belongs to God (and my wife, on account of the pre-nup) and He tells me what to do. And nowhere, nowhere, in any of the Holy Books or the Copmmentaries, does He tell me to hate or kill or steal the land from anyone.
The ZIonists can go pound sand, yes, that very Holy sand.
Lear K
January 7th, 2009 at 8:58 am
The 1982 “operation,” as well as its predecessor, the “Litani Operation” of 1978, were part of the long-standing Zionist strategy for Lebanon and Palestine, which this transition of the Sharett diary illuminates. In fact,that strategy, formulated and applied during the 1950s, had been envisaged at least four decades earlier, and attempts to implement it are still being carried out three decades later. On November 6, 1918, a committee of British mandate officials and Zionist leaders put forth a suggested northern boundary for a Jewish Palestine “from the North Litani River up to Banias.” In the following year, at the Paris peace conference, the Zionist movement proposed boundaries that would have included the Lebanese district of Bint Jubayl and all the territories up to the Litani River. The proposal emphasized the “vital importance of controlling all water resources up to their sources.”
“During the Paris conference, Chaim Weizmann and David Ben Gurion (who later became, respectively, lsrael’s first president and first prime minister) attempted to persuade Patriarch Hayik, who headed the Lebanese delegation, to abandon South Lebanon in return for a promise of technical and financial assistance to develop the area to the north, which they hoped, would become a Christian state.
The Zionist military forces that invaded Palestine in 1948 also occupied part of the district of Marjayun and Bint Jubayl, and reached the vicinity of the Litani River, but were forced to withdraw under international pressure. Then, in 1954, the leaders of the newly established state of Israel renewed Zionist claims on Lebanese water when President Eisenhower’s envoy Eric Johnston proposed a formula of sharing the Litani waters among Lebanon, Syria and Israel. Israel, in fact, threatened to use force against Lebanon to prevent the utilization of the Litani waters to develop South Lebanon. ”
http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/essays/rokach.html#CHAPTER%205%20%20Let%20Us%20Create%20A%20Maronite%20State%20in%20Lebanon
Ira Epstein
January 7th, 2009 at 9:13 am
I think it is perfectly fair to compare the tactics used by the Israeli government against the people of Gaza with the tactics used by the Nazis against the people of the Warsaw Ghetto. Like the Nazis, the Israeli government has confined a large number of people into a very small area. The Gaza strip is considered one of the most densly populated places on earth. Also like the Nazis, the Israeli government is imposing a starvation blockade on the people of Gaza in order to inflict the maximum amount of suffering on the people of Gaza. In this context I think it is appropriate to bring up the palaces of Saddam Hussien. A regime of brutal sanctions were instituted against the people of Iraq for the political purpose of the overthrowing the government of Saddam Hussien. These sanctions did not succeed in this objective, however, they did achieve the objective of killing hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women, and children. Hussien lived a life of luxury while the people of Iraq died because of the lack of food and medicine. A blockade fails to make the critical distinction between combatants and noncombatants. The only purpose a blockade can serve is to inflict the maximum amount amount of misery on a civilian population. One of the reasons that Israel is waging its war against the innocent people of Gaza is to maintain its starvation blockade. Hamas was willing to extend the truce with Israel if Israel would lift its starvation blockade. Israel refused the deal. It is only fair to conclude that one of the war objectives of the Israeli government is to maintain a blockade that will inflict the maximum amount of pain and suffering on the people of Gaza
I can understand why the officials of the government of Israel would shudder to be compared to Nazis. If they want to avoid such comparisions, they should stop acting like Nazis. They should stop portraying all Palistinians as subhumans who lives do not matter. They should stop using force with a blatant disregard for how the use of such force will effect the lives of innocent men, women, and children. Above all they should end the cruel and inhuman siege they have imposed on the people of Gaza.
Lawrence
January 7th, 2009 at 9:14 am
By the way, Tim. In case you can’t discern the “for instance” or contrary-to-fact nature of the scenario outlined above, I’d never inflict on you what you seem so ready to try out on others — safely ensconced behind your keyboard.
Tim R.
January 7th, 2009 at 10:37 am
Brad,
Your are right. As a Jew, I suppose I am somewhat biased. I have travelled to Israel and I have friends who live there so, yes, I don’t deny that I am biased. But I try to be fair-minded. And yes, Israel has done plenty of things wrong. First of all, I don’t believe they should have blockaded Gaza. I believe that was wrong. As a matter of fact, if I was in charge I would send huge convoys of trucks to Gaza with food, medicine, toys, clothing and everything else they needed. I think that would be the right thing to do. And I think Israel has a moral obligation to do more to help the Palestinian people who are suffering,and they have not always lived up to that obligation. There you have it.
On the other hand, keep in mind that a lot of the aid that is given does not actually get to the people. There is rampant corruption throughout the area.
Lear K
January 7th, 2009 at 10:54 am
But the Palestnians must accepet that thier ancestral land and homes taken over by mass immigrants from Russia,Ukraine,Poland,and Brooklyn.
Lear K
January 7th, 2009 at 11:22 am
Tim,
you assume to much.How do you know for sure taht people are Muslims!?” Bashir is a fellow Muslim”!
“125 innocent Palestinians ” that interesting number.Israel we are always reminded that it is a democratic and civilized state.
Ten Reasons Why “Save Darfur” is a PR Scam
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/ten-reasons-why-save-darfur-is-a-pr-scam/
THE MEDIA, SUDAN AND DARFUR
http://www.sudan.net/news/press/postedr/293.shtml
The Save Darfur Coalition: Are They A Hoax Or A Ticking Timebomb
http://www.progressiveu.org/141855-the-save-darfur-coalition-are-they-a-hoax-or-a-ticking-timebomb
The Dufur conflict continues because the rebels have huge baking in the US,and Europe.The 300,000 number is ver highly debated.Many refugees chose to settle in Khartum , the Sudanese capital.
Israel recieves billion of dollars in aid from the US in addetion to deplomatic support.
Finally,the subject of desicussion here is what happening Gaza which is under attack by Israel using American supplied weapons.
A. Magnus
January 7th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
Most Hamas men are terrorists? Well then they have much in common with much of the Israeli leadership: Menachem Begin, former prime minister was a member of Irgun, who blew up women and children in hotels. Yitzhak Shamir – another former prime minister – was part of the Stern Gang, who also had a hand in blowing up civilians. How is it that Israel can have so many terrorists become its leaders and nobody complains? But heaven forbid the Muslims democratically elect terrorists the same way Israel does! In your biased, slanted and utterly unobjective world, that is.
Maybe a quote from a suitably ‘western’ source would enlighten you as to why the Palestinians continually take up arms:
“As you know, I am an Englishman and proud of it. But if I was an American colonist I would never give up my arms and submit. Never! Never! Never!” -William Pitt
A. Magnus
January 7th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
“Israel complied with United Nations resolutions and pulled out of Gaza in 2005 and what did they get for it? ”
They never completely pulled out; they still controlled the coast lines, the ports, and the land borders of Gaza. Try spreading lies among less informed people.
“HAMAS is made up of radical Muslims, the type of guys that would chop any of your heads off in about two seconds. Go ahead, keep sticking up for them.”
Why not, the Israelis did! Check out the facts – Mossad is the reason we have a Hamas to begin with:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/ZER403A.html
Israel cutivated fanatic nutjobs in Hamas in order to undermine the PLO in the 1980s. And once the nutjobs became too nutty for the Israelis to control, THEN they started whining about Hamas. Idiots who play with fire have no right complain when they get burned…
danel
January 7th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
America is being eaten from within. There is a parasite that is sucking up our blood,money and values. Who is running our treasury? Who is pulling GWB’s strings? I’d say NOT Chenney.
Andy
January 7th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
So you are a Jew. Thanks for finally admitting what I had long suspected, but didn’t think it was appropriate to ask. Why don’t you just move to Israel Tim (i’m serious) since you seem to have such a love for the place and are so willing to put its interests ahead of America’s. Dual loyalty is a bad thing, trying to serve two masters, you know. Can’t be done. Perhaps you could explain to me Tim, (in your usual “unbiased” way of course) how or why it is in America’s interest to give Israel 3-4 billions dollars each and every single year in “foreign aid”? Perhaps you can explain to me why the USA should endure the animosity of the Arab world for Israel’s behalf? Why the USA should run interference for Isreal? Why the United States should let Israel be to it what Serbia was to Czarist Russia? (we all know waht happened to Czarist Russia). What benefits accrue to America from this totally one-sided relationship?
Lear K
January 7th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Andrew P,
I am trying to figure out what is the point of your post here!?
Corkey
January 7th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
Tim
Although you try, you are absolutely no intellectual match for most of the people in here. Why don’t you go find and argue your case in a racist White Supremacist website where you will have much more in common with the opposing side than you think ? There, you can be a really big fish in a really dumb pond.
Cpt. Candor
January 7th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
GM said:
“Much of the problem is the Israelis and their supporters are caught up in their own propaganda. By demonizing and dehumanizing the other side as “terrorist, allows you to commit war crimes and abuse human rights endlessly without a guilty conscience. In this sense, the comparison of the Israelis to the Nazis is fair.”
One big difference, though. The Israelis aren’t surrounded by enemies with vastly superior military resources who think that it’s alright to set whole cities alight and then have entire divisions gang rape whatever “enemy” females they can get their hands on. Contrary to what many may think, comparing modern-day Israel to Nazi Germany only serves to COMPLIMENT Israel and insult Nazi Germany. I also find it quite hilarious that the current Gaza assault is taking place right when several films about the Holocaust/NS Germany are appearing in most theaters.
“Good” Wars exist, most certainly, I just don’t think that any have occured in the past couple centuries.
paul bass
January 7th, 2009 at 3:52 pm
i think the real question is whether according to the current rational of the IDF’ies threw out israel and the us would not justify nuclear weapons just like with japan they can nuke civilians to protect the live of there aggressive armies
mark hearne
January 7th, 2009 at 4:17 pm
The Isreali minister who said that “they could go on a diet”. What did he mean?
Did he mean that the people of Gaza should starve.
This man should be arrested for war crimes – attempted genocide the charge.
When did Germans stop beleiving in Nazism, If they had won they would still beleive it.
The Isrealis are in a similar bind. Right wing Isrealism is on the up – election on the way, votes needed by bullys who show how strong they by doing a bit of quick bullying.
they must be shunned by all civilised people.They are actually a racist and apartheid state.
paul bass
January 7th, 2009 at 5:42 pm
mark hearne let me ask you something since when have actual war criminals been tried after our sham with Saddam trying for the crimes he committed i can see a day in the future maybe the us will finaly turn its back to israel… and put its leaders to the noose or maybe the chinese could do us the favor of executing our leaders for war cries and we can return to a modicum of the “justice”
Andy
January 7th, 2009 at 8:51 pm
Tim, It just amazes me how you connect events that have nothing in common. You are a laugh riot. Your self-serving pro-Israel arguments are just rationalization and self-deception. The Jews just want the Palestinian’s land, that’s all.
Lina
January 7th, 2009 at 9:23 pm
To that “D” person,
The only “terrorist” right now I see is the Zionist Israeli regime and its IDF. Israel and its supporter the U.S government are the biggest terrorists in this world. Aren’t you ashamed of talking like that? “Most” Palestinian men are terrorists? Who died and made you the Hitler of our times? Shame on YOU!!!! Everyone here, including you is forgetting that this whole hell has broken lose because Israel is an OCCUPIER!
Tim R.
January 7th, 2009 at 9:40 pm
Yes, Andy, you are so right! Those dirty Jews just have totally stolen the land and they should give it all back! And all those nasty white people in the United States should give back all the land they stole from the Native American Indians. And the evil white people in Canada, Australia, and New Zealand should all do the same, I am sure you agree, correct? I am sure you are not holding Israel to a higher standard.
Tim R.
January 7th, 2009 at 9:41 pm
Corkey,
People like you are fun and amusing but I can’t have a rational debate with you since you are only interested in insults.
Tim R.
January 7th, 2009 at 9:56 pm
Andy,
The way you write, it certainly makes me wonder if you are an anti-semite. I don’t know for you sure but the tone and implications of what you write is disturbing. You say that I finally “admitted” that I was a Jew? As though it is somthing to be ashamed of? Yeah, I’m a Jew and very proud of it. Jesus Christ was a Jew too, not to mention Albert Einstien, and Sigmund Fraud, among others. So I have nothing to hide or be ashamed of.
As for dual loyalties: I totally resent people like you who assume that because I am a Jew and I happen to support Israel, I have “dual” loyalties. Yes, some very zionistic Jews might have dual loyalties, but I am not one of them, niether are most Jews. You are right and a man can’t serve to masters. I am an American citzen, born right here and so were my parents, grand parents and great grandparents. I love this country with all my heart and my ONLY loyalty is to the flag of the United States and the Constitution of the United States. I agree with you. I think ANYONE who lives here and is loyal to some other nation should move there.
The reason we support Israel so strongly is quite simple: We have SHARED VALUES. Israel is the only democracy and the only country that has respect for freedom of speech or religion in that whole region. We should support such a country, and quite frankly I don’t give a damn what the Arab-Muslims think. I don’t buy into the big lie that Islam is a peaceful religion. Why the hell should I care what they think? Did you know that a few weeks ago a Judge in a Saudi Arabian religious court upheld the marriage of a 47 year old man to an 11 year old girl? These people make me sick. All radical Muslims are contemptible in my eyes and I don’t give a damn what they think of my support for Israel.
Now are you going to admit your an anti semite or not?
mike
January 8th, 2009 at 2:09 am
Things will get worse. The current carnage is just a tiny experimentation:
Let’s see how much power we have on the world media. How much freedom of press we can stifle. Let’s see how hard we can push the world. And let’s see if the Economical turmoil would drown their concerns. This is really the perfect timing.
More killings will be done. Soon, they will take on Lebanon. Syria. Egypt. Who knows, the entire middle east. And with the help of millions of active Israeli agents within the US government and military, Iran might not get their nukes, (and thats about the only thing the Israelis are dead worried about).
And with time, the media wont even be reporting anything. And it will all just be another big story of Israel and US force taking out terrorists targets.
We all know who the terrorists are. Its funny how ironic everything is.
Did anyone have an idea of what kind of missiles are been shut at the civilians in Gaza? This is one small fun war game for the new world rulers.
Corkey
January 8th, 2009 at 4:58 am
I am only trying to explain things on your level through sarcasm and satire. You are a racist and no different than those who would segregate or harm people based upon their skin color, religion or social status. That is a fact proven by your own writings.
How anyone in their right mind could justify what is going on in Gaza is beyond me. You should be ashamed of yourself.
I also seriously question your patriotism and loyalty to the US flag too. Your posts have the flavor of an unregistered foreign lobbyist, not an American. If you are so interested in the Middle East, why don’t you go live there and serve in the military ? If you are physically unable, then serve in a support role rather than a combat role. Stop promoting others to do what you cannot or will not do yourself.
Corkey
January 8th, 2009 at 5:19 am
Lear K,
Andrew P sounds like a Nazi Knute Rockne on heroin withdrawal to me. Did he draw those plans up on a chalk board when he wrote that barbaric post ?
Tim R.
January 8th, 2009 at 9:42 am
Corkey,
Can you cite even one comment of mine that was “racist”? I love how folks like you throw around the word “racist” like a football in order to shut people up, belittle them, and shut down debate.
Andy
January 8th, 2009 at 9:49 am
Thanks for ducking my question Tim and making one of your usual vapid knee-jerk responses.
Ira Epstein
January 8th, 2009 at 7:55 pm
The reason I am going “crazy” about the Israeli’s government mass murder of the innocent men, women, and children of Gaza, and have not said or written anything about the situation in Darfur is simple. As far as I know whatever criminal actions the Al Bashir government is taking against the innocent people of Darfur, it is being done without the active complicity of the United States government. The United States government is not providing billions and billions of dollars of aide to the government of Al Bashir. Al Bashir is not using weapons sold to him by the United States to murder and terrorize the innocent people of Darfur. The United States government is not vetoing UN Security Council Resolutions that make an attempt to resolve the conflict in Darfur. The situation in the Gaza and with the Palistinians is the exact opposite. Palistinians are being murdered and terrorized with bombs and planes that say “Made in the USA”. The United States government gives billions and billions of dollars of aide to the Israel government. The United States government gives cover to the Israeli Government for its criminal actions against the Palistinians by using its veto in the UN on behalf of the Israeli government.
On concluding note, I do not think the US government should intervene on behalf of the Palistinians either. I only think the United States government should stop its lopsided support for the Israeli government. It should stop all foriegn aide to Israel (it should end foriegn aide to all countries for that matter) and stop selling weapons to Israel which its uses to kill, maim, and terrorize innocent men, women, and children. The only things the US government should do in conflicts such as Israel and Darfur is to act as an honest broker to stop the bloodshed, and offer those who are caught up in the bloodshed a place of refuge in the United States.
Orville H. Larson
January 8th, 2009 at 10:06 pm
Remember, Representative Ron Paul (R-TX) is the only one in Congress who isn’t owned by the Israel Lobby.
Ab
January 8th, 2009 at 11:17 pm
Hey, I’ve got one for you….Israelis are killing Palestinians with American weaponry and you’re writing dissertations on why Muslims should heed your level-headed advice and become angry at Sudan. Why aren’t you angry at Israelis and Americans? Oh, I know why…the Muslims aren’t committing the atrocities. And since you can’t blame Muslims…well, you know the rest.
Bill K.
January 9th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
Yeah and afterwards the IDF can go around with nice little arm bands saying “Sieg Heil”.
Bill K.
January 9th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Yes the Natives of North America and the Pacific Islands should receive compensation for the land seizure by “illegal migrants” to their territory.
Bill K.
January 9th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
Indeed and the Palestinians are like the Messenians who were regularly massacred to make sure they could never out-number the Spartans and revolt and take back control of their land which had come under Spartan domination.
Bill Murphy
January 10th, 2009 at 8:50 pm
These would be the same Nazi’s that had Palistinian divisions who’s sole purpose was to erradicate the Jews?
nykos
January 11th, 2009 at 10:58 am
If you are really anti-war, perhaps you should consider the source of at least 80% of this planet’s wars.
Here are some links you can use to educate yourselves:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Quran-Hate.htm
http://www.jihadwatch.org
I urge all of you to consider the arguments of both sides before making any uninformed judgements.
masmanz
January 22nd, 2009 at 11:56 am
Let the Israelis do all the killings and people like nykos will justify it by quoting anti-Muslim websites run by the supporters of Israel.
drj
January 27th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
Israel owns the whole Palestine by virtue of winning the war against all its inhabitants ( not pure Palestinians but belonging of different tribes,e.g. Amalekites, Jebusites et al).
They lost it when they lost the war against the Babylonians ( modern Iraqis ).
They won the land again by virtue of winning the war ( with the help of the West )last 1948.
NOW there is war again …
WHY wont you just finish the war by going ALL OUT FOR IT …
Forget about the rhetorics JUST FIGHT IT TIL all Palestinian dies or Jews die!
This will never end until ONE OF THESE MORTAL ENEMIES ALL DIE.
I urge all the arabs “supporting the Palestinian people” to destroy Israel by ALL MEANS!
Then there will be peace…
I urge all those who “support Israel” to totally anihilate all the “Palestinians” to the last baby. Then there will be no more war between theses two people since one will cease to exist.
I’m tired about this “wars” that does not waste time and space in the tv,radio and news as a whole.
Its like a boxing bout with no limits to the rounds of violence. All we need is a total Knockout ending one boxers career… no more “next fight”.
———————————————————————————————-
BETTER YET, why wont we just let the UN rule this small strip of land called Israel/Palestine.
MAke this land a center of world peace and rule of man.
Then there will be no more Israel and no more Palestine.
IF possible, Place these 2 nations somewhere else in the Planet— the Nation of Israel , maybe in one of the big state in the USA ( their prime supporter ) and all the people of Palestine somewhere in SAUDI ARABIA or wherever they are loved and allow these nation to have their own self rule much like VATICAN within Italy.
If both of them like to stay in “CANAAN” then stay but not as a national entity but part of the world of law and peace.
___________________________________________________________
Either we chose war or peace for there is nothing in between
FIGHT A COMPLETE WAR or MaKE A COMPLETE PEACE.
…….
Steve
January 31st, 2009 at 9:43 am
Isreal should kill at ramdom just like hamas. Maybe then the you and everyone else would wake up to how these killers operate!
Steve
January 31st, 2009 at 9:56 am
How many times have the pals been offered peace and statehood and turned it down. Case closed.
Steve
January 31st, 2009 at 12:31 pm
Complete War, there will never be complete peace with Muslims. It is part of their
religion that they will never except any other religion. The koran is pretty clear
on this, become a muslim or pay a tax and maybe we won’t kill you. I for one will never
submit to the brain dead teachings of a wacked out man that claimed to be a phophet.
Many of his teachings go against what God wants and for sure not what Jesus told us
how God wanted us to live and treat each other. Mohammad was an evil man with his own agenda, pretty much the exact opposite of the teachings of Jesus. I feel sorry for muslims for they cannot change religions and are enslaved to be a muslim. I really feel sorry for the women for they are looked upon about the same as a household pet dog or cat. There is light at the end of the tunnel though. I believe that the second coming of Jesus is coming quickly and at that point the Anti-christ and the muslim religion will be dead and that will indeed be a glorious new day in the history of mankind.