American Girl on Fox News: “I was running from Georgian troops, I want to thank the Russian troops”

I don’t think Fox News was expecting this, so they cut them off:

107 thoughts on “American Girl on Fox News: “I was running from Georgian troops, I want to thank the Russian troops””

  1. Ingrates! Their not following the script: Georgia, good… Russia, bad. Fox is shaken down to its phony bone when reality creeps in the narrative!

    1. Oh come on. Fox knew perfectly what they were going to say in advance and bent over backwards to let them say it. I say Fox should be congratulated for putting them on the air. These were Ossetians. Quite aside from the fact that all these people are interviewed and re-interviewed before they ever get on the air, don’t you think Fox knows whose side the Ossetians are going to be on? Fox News is bad enough without being demonized in one of those rare instances when they make an attempt at being even handed.

      1. Your confidence in cable “news” networks is misplace. But I must include CNN and MSNBC in the same category although this clip happened to be of Fox News.

        24 hour “news” networks take just about anybody they can to fill up time.

        Numerous “Federal Prosecutors” are on who have spent 3 or 4 months of their entire lives working for the feds.

        They do not interview and re-interview people as other types of forums might do. And they tend to be passive. People send talking points to them and ask to be on. They don’t spend a lot of time looking for information.

        Smith, like a lot talking heads, is lazy. This was not a “reporter” or “fact-finder” using time to ask eyewitnesses pertinent questions.

        In fact, the only time you get information from these eyewitnesses is when they volunteer without being asked.

  2. This is exactly what I’ve been telling everybody that brings it up, and they’re like, “Huh!?”

    Thanks for the post antiwar!

    1. What’s new about that?!

      The media in the US is worse than even the media in dictatorship where people know that it is forced to broadcast what it is told.None believe it unlike the case with so called free press of the free world.

      1. There is only freedom of the press in the USA when Corporate America like what you have to say/print….

  3. If you go to the site, you can see a videotape of a Fox journalist and other journalists, clearly marked as such, being shot at by Georgian military irregulars.

    I don’t know how long Fox will leave the video up since it clashes with their narrative of David/ Georgians and Goliath/ Russians, so go look at it fast, and if anyone knows how to save the video please do and send it to

  4. Let’s not forget that in war, atrocities are typically committed by both sides. However, it was Georgia’s aggression that started the war.

    P.S. That should be a semi-colon in the heading.

    1. No, it should be a _colon_. The headline is correct as is. Check any major English-language newspaper throughout the world if you want empirical verification, otherwise look at a decent style guide or grammar.

      1. Hi, Eric:
        I think that the semicolon person meant that the comma should be replaced by a semicolon, not the colon. And thanks for the great footage of Raimondo (avec cigarette) and this one on Outfoxed news.

  5. Honestly, I don’t often subject myself to Fox, but I did catch this live, and watched Shep Smith’s reporting of the war….and while I hate to give too much credit, compared to most of the rest of the media he actually came close to honest-pointing out that the Georgians shot first, and that Bush’s lunatic military “humanitarian” aid could have “serious consequences for the planet”.

    How sad that the slightest bit of truth seems praiseworthy.

  6. Through the previous blog post with Justin speaking to Russia Today television I managed to view some clips online and I found it ironic that Georgian forces left behind quite a lot of equipment including American made M-16 rifles…. It gets weirder and weirder. Obviously any “news” organization can cherry-pick what they plan to broadcast and the Russians were showing how a city by the name of Gori was in fact in excellent shape in comparison to those is Ossetia. So where is CNN ad-nauseum? Where are the round the clock media blitzes? Definitely the girl giving thanks to the Russians was a coup. Bravo!

  7. Thank God for Fox News. You know why I say that? Not because they are fair and balanced; they aren’t. Actually they are clearly biased and lean to the right. But they are a good counter-weight to the left-wing extremists on most of the other channels, most notably MSNBC.

    1. But they are a good counter-weight to the left-wing extremists on most of the other channels, most notably MSNBC.

      Still living in 1980, eh, Tim?

      1. liberranter:
        I see you’ve pierced the curtain that surrounds the Oz-like fantasy-mind of Tim R. He lives in a nether world populated by self-contrived myths and angst–all of them yesterday’s news (except to neocon apologists). After all, who could praise a right-wing statist press as a counter-weight to the left-wing statist press. LOL! Together they make one whacked-out totalitarian with no memory. Check out some of his other fantasies on these blogs. One blogger suggested that Tim R may not be physically free to leave the room where he is tied down.

    2. Thank God for one foot in a bucket of boiling water and one foot in a block of ice. The two balance each other and I feel so comfortable!

  8. I wouldn’t be so quick to jump on the Russia is great bandwagon. They don’t exactly have the best history in regards to non-agression. Obviously time will tell how this turns out, but it’s not over till it’s over. However, it’s also apparent that the US influenced (puppet) Mikhail Saakashvili blew it big time on this one. chalk another one up for good old US interventionism. I keep wondering how we could have encouraged something so stupid, the deaths don’t surprise me but why would we give the Bear such a wide open door.

    The only thought I have had is that we must want to restart the cold war. All signs are pointing to it, from our missle shield to our Iran beligerence, etc. Is it possible that the powers that be feel that the “War on Terror” isn’t enough to keep the US citizens properly terrified.

    Well good job anyway, for pointing out yet more hipocrisy in both our press and our so called rulers.


    1. You yourself point out it wasn’t so stupid after all. “We” accomplished exactly what “we” wanted, increased tension to justify increased military spending.

    2. It is hard to not jump on the Russian bandwagon. I do not think that anyone here or anyone in the world thinks that Russia’s military is a teddy bear. The people on these boards are aware of the brutal nature Russian tactics. I am applauding Russia because there are only a few countries that are capable of telling Washington to back off. Russia is one of those countries. I have been waiting for Russia to stand up and it finally has stood up and told the West to stop intervening in its sphere of influence.

      Russia is also responding to a genuine war crime. Saakashvili ignored his own unilateral ceasefire agreement to attack South Ossetia. Georgia’s military targeted its fellow peace keepers. Russia will not call for the arrest of the Georgian leadership but Russia has every right to call for the removal of Saakashvili. It will not do that latter either.

      Only the propaganda wing of the Pentagon can portray Russia as the aggressor in this war. It seems clear that the Pentagon told Georgia to go ahead with this invasion. Saakashvili is an American puppet and even he must have known that Georgia could not contend with an angry Russian Bear.

      1. I don’t believe in war for any reason other than self defense. It’s possible to say that the defense of South Ossetia is self defense as most of the poplulation hold Russian passports. I’m not saying that Russia was wrong I just wouldn’t suddenly jump to the conclusion that Russia is somehow turned into some utopian dream. As for Russia holding our feet to the fire, I doubt it. The new cold war will be mutually benificial for both our major powers. I wouldn’t put it past both of our nations to have gotten behind closed doors and orchestrated this hole mess. When I say that time will tell I’m not talking about the next days, weeks, or even years, but decades.

        My Great Grandparents came hear from Russia with my Grandfather (He married a Polish Immigrant). I have studied the history of Russia along with it’s current problems. And I for one would not hold out any hope that Russia will some how turn into the savior of the world. Yes they worry about their “sphere of influence” and don’t think for a second that they are incapable of using severe means to get what they want.

        Yes the US is the Major problem in the world today, but why would you think adding Russia to the mix would somehow be a remedy?


        1. Oh yah one more thing. As for Sphere of influence. We used to use this term in regards to our invlovment all over South and Central America. We now seem to believe the whole world or at least anyware that our Corporations can make a profit is within our sphere of influence. Russia’s Sphere of influence was once much larger now it’s shrinking and we are taking over. Russia pushes back and increases theirs. And on and on and on. Two wrongs don’t make a right now matter how you wish to see it. When we understand that our only Sphere of Influence is our own nations we will be one step closer to world peace. I could go further and get into Libertarian beliefs but why bother, thats something you either get or don’t.

      2. I WAS very pacifistic back then in the USSR. I supported the demolition of the USSR when it happened, although even then Georgia and Baltic nationalism was stinking bad. Even in 1989.

        But since then I see that Russia’s pacifistic approach resulted only in NATO expansion, US aggression all over the world (Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afganistan), military bases in Middle Asia and now – direct deadly assault against Russian soldiers/peacekeepers and civilian population of territories inhibited be Russian passport bearers and being de-facto part of Russia (using rouble as currency, trading only with Russia etc.)

        So, my conclusion – WHILE Russia is much weaker then the USA, supporting Russia in it’s actions is the only way to go. WHEN Russia and its future allies would become on-par in terms of power to the US – I would be the first to go and protest before Kremlin. And since the affiliation is likely to be with China – that would be a risky proposition indeed, but that’s life, that’s war (for peace :-)

        By the way – where are the US protestors? Why even in the USSR there were 5 people that went in front of Kremlin to protest the Checzhoslovakian “tank policing” operation? That tells you something about what american people are like.

        I’m afraid, the reality check would be very bad – in the form of nuclear exchange, in the form of nuclear blasts all over the US territory. Seems that may be the only way to bring the US population to proper vision of reality.

        On a lighter note – a joke – during the USSR time – Famous fortune-teller is asked the question – “Would the Big War happen?” – the answer – “No, there would be no Big War, but we’ll fight for Peace in a way that it would be hard to tell the difference” => welcome to this future.

        1. Thanks for the comments. I agree with you on much of what you say. But you are wrong that there are no protesters from the US. We do protest, however our bought and paid for media propogandist simply ignore any protest. If a tree falls in the woods and nobody hears it does it make a noise?

          I don’t believe that the destruction of much of the world would be good for anyone. So we had better hope the People of the US wake up in some other way. Yes the sheeple that walk around my country make me sick. But you must realize just how powerfull the propoganda machine is. The schools, Media, even many Churches support an all powerfull state machine. It’s not as obvious as that of the former USSR however, it is probably even more affective becuase it appears to give us a choice, left vs right, when in fact their isn’t a dimes worth of difference between the two. That is the first thing we need to realize. Knowledge is power, spread the word and wake up the sheeple, it’s our only hope at this point.

      3. On “sphere of influence”

        Ok, so the US is expanding it’s sphere of influence pretty much to my home in Moscow. And the proposed action for Russia?

        Yes, Russia would LOVE to see Georgia, Ukraine, Baltics, Poland and Chezh republic to act like Finland or, ideally, Switzerland. But they do not – they do not have independent Govts. there.

        But I know the reason why – these territories are not countries. They never actually WON the fight for their independence. Unlike Finland for example. Hence the problem – they are not states, they are US protectorates.

        Same is true about most of Europe, including Germany. Same is NOT true about Switzerland. Etc.

        Russia had won deadly wars for it’s independence MORE TIMES THEN ANY COUNTRY that exists now.

        1. Poland has been invaded and occupied more than Russia. Thier acceptance of US aid is a direct result of the former policies of the USSR, Germany, and France. The same is true of the other US protectorates. I don’t believe it’s the job of the US to protect any nation but the US and it’s people. Sticking our nose in where it doesn’t belong will bring us nothing but grief in the long run. I believe the same is true for Russia. They would be better off spending their time and resourses keeping themselves strong and free. The advent of the nuclear age and bombs makes this not only possible but the best solution for all of us. does a country with the ability to destroy the world really need to fear invasion? I understand the USSR’s need for a buffer after the great wars, however it just isn’t neccessary in the current world of MAD.


  9. Recoiling from the rank hypocrisy displayed in western media, does not necessarily make the Russians all right, all the time. But you know that.

    1. Notice, how even here West is anti-Russian.

      Firstly, how can anybody view Russia as being MORE aggressive then the US/UK?

      Let’s look at the facts since 1945. Russia:
      1) Hungary – police operation, but with 100s people killed – although NOT civilians in their homes, not through use of weapons of semi-mass destruction (like GRAD or artillery).
      2) Prague – police operation, maybe 10 people killed, in accidents – under the tanks maybe, but not from shooting
      3) Afganistan – BAD WAR OF CHOICE. Resulted in USSR collapse pretty much.
      4) Chechnja – the war started when Kremlin was ruled by the US in a way similar to Gerogia now. Eltsin was doing whatever his Western advisers would tell him. NOT until “KGB officer” came to power the war, leading before that to thousands killed and suffering – ended. So – with Chechnja at least there is a pattern – the more affiliation with the West – the more blood there.

      So… did I miss something? Maybe Poland, but I’m not sure – still a police operation.
      5) Georgia 2008 – clear police operation, at least by now. US may try to ignite it further, but let’s hope there is not enough US troops on hands to do that.

      Then, I can’t even count the number of “Police operations” by the US from 1945. Since there are 800 military based, would be safe to say that there were 800 at least :-) But let’s looks at major “Wars of Choice”, with systematic killing of civilians. Once again, only Afgan and Chechen war can be compared to this:
      1) Nuclear bombing of Japan
      2) Korea
      3) Vietnam
      4) Yugoslavia
      5) Afganistan
      6) Iraq 2003
      And I guess quite few of US “Police operatons” resulted in 100s or 1000s of civilians killed.

      And let’s agree – Russia decided to subscribe to “Antiwar” ideology in 1991. That resulted in NATO moving closer with each year, and US missiles moving closer each year as well. It is VERY sad to see, how ideals of anti-war movement of 60s/70s/80s proved to be completely Utopian. Sad indeed.

      1. Vassili,
        Thanks for the trip down memory lane. Your point is well taken. However subconsciously, even the MSM acknowledge that the USA is now the Evil Empire. Does anyone else recall the sub-heads after the 9-11 attacks? In particular, I’m thinking of the “America Strikes Back” running subhead, day after day. Just change that “America” to “The Empire,” and the Freudian slip comes into full view.

      2. (7) Lebanon (twice)
        (8) Panama
        (9) Guatemala (covert)
        (10) Nicaragua (covert)
        (11) Chile (covert)
        (12) Colombia (covert)
        (13) Cuba (semi-covert and continuing)
        (14) San Salvador (covert)
        (15) Venezuela (covert)
        (16) Haiti
        (17) Grenada

        And the addendum is still incomplete.

      3. (18) Iran (twice–covert and overt)
        (19) Philippines (covert)
        (20) Laos (overt and covert)
        (21) Cambodia (overt and covert)

      4. So many poeple seem to forget or ignore the war against Iraq in 1991 that the US claimed was in response to Iraq invasion of Kuwait with same type of lies.The US made sure that Kuwait did not relieve Iraq of its debts to Kuwait,the US giving Iraq the green light to invade,the incubaters babies story.The US made sure that Kuwaiti infestraucters were destryed in the so called the liberation of Kuwait.But before the libration of Kuwait even started the US made sure that the Amir of Kuwait give all the contracts of rebuilding the country to American companies specilly Bechtel!

      5. Vassili,

        Why not tell the WHOLE story?

        Here is your list:

        1) Nuclear bombing of Japan
        2) Korea
        3) Vietnam
        4) Yugoslavia
        5) Afganistan
        6) Iraq 2003

        Is it really so cut and dried that the US was the bad guy in all of those? What are the facts?

        1) Is it not true that imperial Japan bombed Pearl Harbor in a sneak attack on 7 December 1941? Had they not also made a pact with Hitler? Had they not also invaded China and the Philipines? (By the way I do not think we should have dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan either, however, don’t act like Truman just did it for laughs.)

        2) Did not North Korea, asisted by China attack South Korea? Is it not true that even until today N. Korea is a totalitarian dictatorship while S. Korea is free and democratic?

        3) No arguement on Vietnam, I don’t think we should have gotton into that.

        4)Yugoslavia. Did not the Serbs massacre thousands of innocent Bosnian Muslims? The Srebrenica massacre accounted for over 7,000 innocent children, women and men murdered in one day. Don’t we have a moral obligation to do something about wickedness of that caliber?

        5) Afghanistan…um do the words Taliban and Al Quida ring a bell? 9/11/01??? hello?!

        6) Iraq. Yes it was probably a mistake to get involved there but again tell the whole story. Saddam was a brutal and evil man who killed tens of thousands of innocents. He invaded Kuwait in 1990 and when he lost the Persian Gulf War he signed a peace treaty that he later violated more times than I can count.

        1. Your brief historical vignettes demand attention for what they omit:

          1) Japan was maneuvered into firing the first shot by Roosevelt after he had suspended oil imports and financed Japan’s enemies- among them the brutal Chiang Kai-shek- in China. Parenthetically, it is clear that the US regarded the Japanese threat in purely economic terms- the War Department’s memo warned of dire consequences resulting from the loss of American markets in the Far East. The same applies to Germany. Of course, that would not have been a problem save for the state-enforced regulatory cartelization and tariffs of industry that prevented the prices of goods from falling to the point of market clearance and necessitated the expansion of overseas markets to allow industry to operate at full capacity while retaining monopoly profits. The situation could be resolved by, among other things, dismantling the incipient state-corporate nexus but this would have been unpopular with big business, Roosevelt’s primary constituency. For an excellent treatment of the topic, I recommend the following:

          Monopoly Capitalism and Imperialism by Kevin Carson:

          The Role of State Monopoly Capitalism in the American Empire by Joseph Stromberg:

          2) The creation of the North-South divide was America’s doing, after the ephemeral Korean People’s Republic was abolished by (American) decree. Due to the intensity of Korean nationalism many in Korea preferred unification- even on the North’s terms.

          3) For once, I agree with you.

          4) Milosevic was very much a Stalinoid authoritarian of the old school, not the ethnic chauvinist he is depicted as- his electoral platform was one of maintaining the integrity of the old FSRY. The break-up of Yugoslavia and resulting cycle of ethnic violence resulted from Western, particularly European, support for the breakaway states of Slovenia and Croatia, within whom ultranationalist parties were far stronger than in Serbia. The Badington Commission ruled against the right of considerable Serbian minorities within the constituent republics to secede, a ruling that was subsequently upheld after the Yugoslav wars. The result, naturally, was Serbian support for ethnic nationalism within the perpetrator of Srebenica, the Republika Srpska. This is the political context that you elide.

          5) Curiously, the US government refused to present Afghanistan with evidence of Bin Laden’s wrongdoing. This could be read multiple ways, but my personal hypothesis is that the 9/11 attacks were conceived and executed by some lower echelon of Al-Qaeda.

          6) Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait was triggered by the latter’s violation of oil production quotas and the slant-drilling into the Rumaila oil field. The former had a devastating economic impact upon Iraq. The catalyst for the invasion, however, was America’s refusal to take a stance on the issue until the eve of the invasion. While not strictly relevant, it is also worthwhile to note that the US systematically destroyed Iraq’s civilian infrastructure and subjected it to a series of crippling economic sanctions that were directly responsible for the deaths of a million Iraqi children.

          So the US definitively occupies the position of “bad guy”. Naturally it does not differ in this respect from any other state, its particular character being determined by its internal structure rather than anything so nebulous as “ideology”.

  10. “Recoiling from the rank hypocrisy displayed in western media, does not necessarily make the Russians all right, all the time. ”

    I don’t like the idea of Russia invading ex-USSR states any more than you do, and definitely, an outright attempt to conquer Georgia or the Ukraine would constitute a “red line.”

    But the fact is, the posters here are right, as is Pat Buchanan in his excellent article– we needlessly, stupidly baited Russia with things like Kosovo (which “gained” us an al-Qaeda allied KLA narcostate in the Balkans) and the missile shield– when we had a wonderful opportunity, post-1991, to effectively ally with Russia and outline a zone of common interests. There is simply no reason that the USA and Russia had to become hostile, save for the deferred dreams of some idiot Cold Warriors who are still stuck in 1962.

    1. [W]e needlessly, stupidly baited Russia with things like Kosovo (which “gained” us an al-Qaeda allied KLA narcostate in the Balkans).

      Being ever the cynic, I’m not at all sure that this stupidity can be classified as “unforeseen consequences” or that it is the result of simple brainlessness on the part of our overlords. Incubating an enclave of Islamic extremism within Europe created the fuel for some truly nasty blowback of the type that manifested itself on 9/11/01, exactly the sort of event that our overlords needed to justify heaping their plates with even more helpings of illegitimate and unconstitutional power. Although this particular instance of blowback had its origins elsewhere in the world, the cause and effect were the same.

      There’s always a method to the madness…

  11. Go to and read the “why dont you shut up,bush”
    There seem to have been a direct american involvement in the fighting…..

  12. So when the truth comes to FOX as a news, cutting & not informing public becomes a normal practise.Doing that we are the public been informed by FOX that we should newer on the FOX news anymore.
    Get the hunch that so the CNN so the CNBC, ONLY WHEN THERE IS AN ENTERTAINMENT.

    I wonder why public is not informed properly how much sponsor gets these channels from oil companies & sponsor from War industries it is mind boggling

  13. Goodness, truth from Fox News! I was not sure who was the original aggressor until I heard that -good job!. I suspect Russia has been ratcheting up tensions for quite some time and all they needed was an excuse for a pre-planned military operation. However, this young girl makes a very compelling witness implicating Georgian Government in mass murder their own citizens – committing war crimes of which there is no excuse and erases any good will or moral authority they gain by helping us in Iraq. Smells like another shameful, incompetent job by Condi Rice formulating a policy of arming and encouraging these morons.

    1. To top of the lies she has told and crimes she has committed against humanity in her roles in the Bush administration, Condoleezza Rice fails with a bang, and with characteristic criminality, at her supposed specialty: Sovietology. She has declared that she is going back to “Academic Life” after the Bush presidency. Is it that the American Academia has become the last refuge of the scoundrel?

  14. Why is the news and information around the world so corrupted? How come we are given different stories in the main news. Anyone talking about independent media seems to be given the “aliens exist” look by others. Hopefully a video like this one will spark the flame for a few and lead them to research what is what.

  15. Bush wanted Georgia in NATO so that bases could be built around Russia. The Russians are not stupid. Bush and his cronies had better stop messing with the world. His interference will bring this country down while he sanctimoniously brings “democracy to all nations.”

    When will the Bush nightmare be over, Lord?

    1. The answer to your last question is “never.” We’ve only seen the beginning, and it will only be perpetuated by whichever half of the Obamacain monster takes possession of the royal diadem next January.

  16. Was not this same FOX that took off the air the stories about the Israeli spy networks cought redhanded in 2001!?

  17. It gets more interesting. Shaakashvili was none to friendly with the Rupert Murdoch co-owned local television station until the other Georgian co-owner was killed. Check this:

    “Incidentally, Arkady Patarkatsishvili, the co-owner with Rupert Murdoch of Georgia’s most popular television station Imedi, under pressure for years to sell out to the Saakashvili government, was found dead in London in February 2008 under suspicious circumstances, a few months after Saakashvili had Imedi taken off the air, and a few weeks after Patarkatsishvili stated that he had obtained a tape recording of Georgian authorities ordering a hit on him from a Chechen warlord. Another report has representatives of Saakashvili offering Patarkatsishvili to exchange the entire Georgian railway system for Imedi a few days before Patarkatsishvili’s death. Since the death of Patarkatsishvili, Imedi has mysteriously turned pro-Saakashvili. See:

    1. Sam,
      Fox is also good for “Hell’s Kitchen” and “Kitchen Nightmares.” What a shame they are taking us to the one place and giving us the other!

      1. Haha, good one…taking us to Hell’s Kitchen and giving us Nightmares. I would laugh even harder if I knew it wasn’t true. :/

  18. I like the way the woman got in that little extra dig, “I know this is not what you want to hear….”

    She knows exactly who she’s dealing with.

    I wonder whether before the broadcast she perhaps misled them as to what she was going to say, in order to make sure she’d get the chance to talk. What a coup!

  19. I hate to be the one to evey say anything nice about Fox but I don't think they were cut off. I'm impressed that Fox actually came back from commercial break and let them finish their rant. In the past I've seen Fox actually cut people off in mid sentence blamming it on a technical error or loss of feed. They may not have liked what was being said but they let it play put.

    Impressed with Fox for first time!

  20. “I like the way the woman got in that little extra dig, “I know this is not what you want to hear….

    She knows exactly who she’s dealing with.”


    It’s possible she grew up in the USSR and knew a propagandic news organization when she saw it.

    1. You’re so true – the first time I’ve visited the US in 1990, after trip to France, the biggest shock was plastic cup with coffee in the US. I tasted it and said – “Wait a second, is the the all-mighty US, or are we back in the USSR? Coffee is even worse”. Since that time though a glimpse of freedom in the form of “Starbacks” happened :-)

      And – yes – the newspapers in the US are very much like USSR “Pravda”, especially on the first few pages (“Pravda” had only 8 pages). Reading “between the lines” is no big deal for someone with USSR past :-(. “White is called black, and aggressor is called the victim” – exactly.

      “Freedom is slavery, Peace is War and Ignorance is Power” This is the US ruled portion of the World today. Honestly, when I was reading that book, interestingly year was 1984, and I’ll admit, I did not understand THAT slogan – it was nothing like I’ve seen around. I’ve seen “Glory to Communist Party of the USSR!” slogan, as well as “Peace to the World”, but that was not quite that. Of course, someone of UK origin would write about HIS world, not mine. And I clearly remember people saying to each other – “If we have “Peace” slogan all over, how come we’re in Afganistan?”

      1. And – yes – the newspapers in the US are very much like USSR “Pravda”

        Now wait a minute, Vassili, that’s not fair to Pravda. I’m sure the writers and editors Pravda knew (and probably still know) how to put coherent sentences together that literate adults could read. :)~

  21. Those brave foot soldiers at Fox — suppressing those preteen girls and their aunts who dare to clog the stovepipe. Balls of steel, I tell ya! (BBs, that is. Implants, at that.)

  22. Its good the way Russia made the U.S. look ridiculous and revealed its weakness for the whole world to see. The USA could do nothing for its protege when the chips were down. America also unwittingly revealed its blatant hypocrisy to the whole world with its reaction. It must be infuriating for Washington’s elites to accept they can do nothing and have to swallow the fact that the world does not revolve around them. Look how tough the USA was with little Serbia, Panama, and of course, Iraq. Where is the tough guy now? U.S. foreign policy could be written by a schoolyard bully. And we all know bullies only pick on those weaker then themselves.

    1. I agree. But, somehow, when the US does react, I fear that the victims will not be Russia, but the other nations that will deal with Russia’s counter-attack. The US is separated on both sides by vast oceans. However, the countries where the volatility is occurring are all in attack range of one another.

      I honestly feel the US foreign policy would be vastly different if there weren’t the two geographic defenses (oceans) separating it from the rest of the world.

      1. OK, so what is Russia supposed to do – if US occupied these territories, and then starting to use them for attacks against Russia, of course people that live there would suffer.


        But what is is done. I hope Russia would be able to act on the US more by economics, but SOME military action is inevitable unfortunately.


        If in such an even US would run as Georgians did, Russia’s position in the World would be restored with much less blood of 3rd parties.

      2. I’m sure there is a great deal of truth to that. It is the idea that the USA is free from retaliation that encourages certain elements in Washington to engage in meddling overseas.

    1. In truth, Dahmer’s victims were all young men. Living only three blocks from him I suppose he eyed me for a snack, but happily a)I wasn’t his type and b)I was twice his size and would have kicked his skinny ass.

  23. Well, even looking at this possible beginning of Russia’s resurgence as a world power is a mixed blessing, it is nonetheless a very clear blessing, and not because of anything in either the nature of Russia or of the Russian government. It is a good thing because it may be the beginning of the end of the “sole remaining superpower” mentality that has defined the US government’s mindset almost since the death of the USSR. The articles on today only just hint at the sense of humiliation on the part of Bush, Rice, etc. at having to give in to the Russians while simultaneously huffing and puffing at them. The cease fire agreement negotiated by Rice even includes expanded peacekeeping roles for Russian troops (at Russian insistence!), and apparently does not return Ossetia or Abkhazia to Georgia! After years of arrogant, post-911 self-righteousness, it is good to watch the bastards squirm, realizing that, for all their blustery rhetoric, they can do nothing! It is good for the world that US unipolarity is dying, and it is good for the world to see. While one may not always look back fondly at the Cold War, it did have one great advantage — it occasionally forced our government to practice restraint, and no doubt had a similar effect on the Russian government.

    One further thought on this conflict: I don’t believe Saakashvili had the “green light” from Washington. I think he believed that with all the rehetorical and material support from Washington, he believed that he could get a retroactive “green light” if he could pull off a lightning strike and announce that he had retaken Ossetia before the Russians could react effectively. This would have almost certainly earned Georgia it’s coveted place in NATO, and dispelled any lingering European doubts about NATO expansion. The Russians have turned this on it’s head.

    Yet one more further thought: the Georgians also had Israeli trainers. Now, given that Israeli aligned US neocons were instrumental in getting the US to attack Iraq (no, these were not the sole influences or motivations), is this perhaps a quid pro quo for America acceding to carry out the invasion of Iraq? Israel has no vital interests in that part of the world, and angering Russia is an incredibly stupid thing for a country like Israel to do, since Russia does not actively encourage any of it’s military enemies. Befriending a second, or even third, major power would in fact be far more useful to Israel, given it’s geographical and economic situation. Remember: it was the US neocon hawks that pressured Israel to fire the guy who was selling missiles to the Chinese during the Sharon administration (something they had been doing for many years before). On the other hand, controlling the Caspian oil pipeline and ringing Russia with bases is in US imperial interests, as is controlling Iraqi oil. So, let me suggest to Raimondo and his fan club here, that while he is right to criticize the neocons, their Israelocentrism, and their role in pushing the US towards war, they should not be blinded into Israelophobia, which I will define here as ascribing an overwhelming, near total level of control of US policy to Israel and it’s US supporters. Israel did not make the US invade Panama, Grenada, or support the Nicaraguan contras, nor did Israel demand action in Kosovo, among so many other places. Let me suggest here that while it may seem to many here that it is a matter of the Israeli tail wagging the US dog, this analogy is both inapt and inept. A better analogy would be a hyperactive, cantankerous dog held on a varying-length leash by an indulgent, but clever owner who understands that he can never fully train his dog, but understands also that if he keeps the dog well fed and occasionally lets him run his leash (and applies the very occasional sharp tug), he can rely on him to attack whomever he wishes. It worked during the Cold War, when Israel sold weapons to Honduras, Guatemala, South Africa, and other regimes the US didn’t want to sell directly to. It is in fact an analogy more in line with the notion that Israel is America’s imperial gendarme, not it’s master. This would also entailing a reexamination of the notion that the US is only now becoming an empire: it has been one for a damn long time.

    1. Of course I would agree on multi-polar world being better. If anyone agrees, that intra state balance of powers is good, same applies to the World at large.

      Speaking of Israel. I imagine many people here don’t understand that Russia-Israel relationships are much better then US/Russia relationship. Do I need to mention that wife of Russia’s president is supposedly of Jewish ancestry? Do I need to mention his ties to Jewish community in Russia?

      Not to mention that 50% of Israel population are Russians. There is no procedure for denouncing Russian citizenship (that law was passed after the shameful history of USSR taking away citizenship and expelling political opponents). So – if one is born in Russia, he can not be NOT Russian citizen. So – Russia has same grounds for invading any country that invades Israel, as in the recent Russia/Georgia conflict. Keep that in mind.

      So, 50% of Israel population can get refuge in Russia with no difficulties on the border.

      More then that though, since September 2008 Russia and Israel do not have visa restrictions on travel. That degree of closeness is shared only with former USSR republics, as well as Egypt and Turkey.

      And in Israel itself – there is same raft between pro-West portion of the population, and Russian portion. Latter not being entirely pro-Russia of course, but certainly feeling the same discrimination that Russia proper feels from the West. And that is 50% of the population, and better portion of Israel Army as well. Genetics – Russians are good soldiers.

      Notice, how Turkey is reluctant to let US Naval ships to pass to the coasts of Georgia. This is some “under the radar” politics, but it exists.

      Notice how Israel distances itself from Russia/Georgia conflict.

      So, let’s separate Zionist-Neocon stuff from Jewish in general. I’d argue that Zionists/Neocons to Jews is exactly same as Bolsheviks/Communists to Russians. I put FULL BLAME on Zionists for Jewish genocide during WWII in Germany and it’s occupied territories. For them it was a plot to convince most Jews to move to Palestine and start a new state – for the benefit of Zionist elite *mostly*. It’s amazing to see, how Israel ignores (as a state) the glorification of German SS members and affiliates that happens in Baltics and Ukraine currently. Russian Jews are enrages by that – in Israel and elsewhere, as well as Russians of course.

      1. Vasili,

        Nothing is pure. There is water, and then there is drinking water, which come in as many varieties, as far as the impurities in the water are concerned, all over the world. Yet people drink the drinking water available. Nothing is absolute either. The Americans chose George W. Bush to be their president for a second time. They have chosen McCain to stand for election to the office of the president of America now. In Israel, and for sixty years the government, democratically elected, has been waging war of occupation and committing acts of ethnic cleansing and apartheid. I cannot understand why when it comes to good things democracy is a virtue, but when it turns up someone like George Bush or something like Israel, it is like oh, not all Jews support the Israeli apartheid or not all Americans supports Bush. For what it counts, the Americans have elected Bush twice, and Israelis have supported their apartheid regime for sixty years. The rest is just unwarranted blah blah!

    2. “Israel has no vital interests in that part of the world…”

      I don’t know about that. First of all, so much U.S. policymaking is made by Americans with dual Israeli citizenship that I don’t see where one can draw the line between Israeli and American “vital interests.” I’d say they have become one and the same at this point.

      But beyond that, I have heard talk of a pipeline running through the region which has received heavy Israeli investment. You also must not forget that Israel and its U.S. bullyboy have embarked on a global crusade against Islam, and so the area may have strategic importance in that respect.

      I’d also like to know why Jewish billionaire George Soros has been meddling in the politics of the region. I for one don’t believe his motivations, whatever they are, are as philanthropic as he wants the world to believe.

      “…nor did Israel demand action in Kosovo, among so many other places. ”

      Perhaps not, but it’s hard not to notice that many of the key instigators in that affair were either Jews or of Jewish descent (e.g. Madeleine Albright claimed to have been shocked to “discover” that her grandparents were Jewish, while General Wesley Clark revealed to the world that he is descended from a long line of rabbis).

      1. You are right to make the Yugoslav connection. Israel actively supported the nominally Muslim Albanians in the criminal attack against Yugoslavia the Serbs. Moreover, there was clear evidence that both “Al Qaeda” (whatever it is) and the Chechens were present on the Albanian side.

        1. Every one nowdays uses Al Qaeda connection to justify their cause,agenda ,actions,and wars.

        2. Curious that Chechens and “Al Qaeda” got read carpet treatment in Albania, eh?

  24. There is no way the US did not know about the attack on South Ossetia. US troops were training with Georgian troops just 3 weeks ago during “Immediate Response 2008” War “Games”. And then 3 days before the attack Georgian troops began firing mortars into South Ossetia to make them retaliate with their own, afterwards they were using this as a provocation.

    The night before the main Georgian attack Saakashvili appeared on Georgian Television and said this – “it is with great pain that I announce a cease fire and have ordered all our forces to stand down, tomorrow we will send ‘negotiators’ to South Ossetia and begin talks on autonomy”. Two hours later Georgian artillery opened fire on South Ossetia.

    The day of attack was no coincidence. Much of the Russian Government was on Vacation, Prime Minister Putin was in Beijing, Russia’s Army Commanders were on their leave(Vacation).

    Georgia’s Army planned a 14 hour long offensive, and by 12:00 on August 8 it expected to be on the Russian border. The plan was nearly identical to Operation “Storm” of Croatia in 1995. Captured maps and documents detail an identical scenario. Operation “Storm” was organized by “retired” US Officers. This one could also have been planned by those same Officers.

    The goal was to reach and destroy the Roksky Tunnel, the only(!!) road connection to Russia from South Ossetia. Once cut off there is no quick way to send Troops from Russia across the border. South Ossetia has no Airports or Rail lines. Only a single road. And that was the target of the leading element of the attack, a Georgian Special Forces Battalion, they crossed into South Ossetia first and began moving north.

    But the Georgian attack failed for 2 reasons. Ossetian Intelligence already knew Georgia was planning an attack, the day before 100 tanks arrived in the bordering regions. Ossetia’s Reservist Militia was activated and units were ready for combat when the first artillery shells hit. Also South Ossetia’s forces were separated in several groups, according to an earlier agreement, they could only keep no more than 500 troops near the border and no heavy equipment, they had several tanks and pieces of artillery of their own, but these were stored out of range of Georgian artillery. The major portion of the South Ossetian Armed Forces were out of range for Georgia, and by mid morning moved south to attack the Georgian 4th Infantry Brigade moving into and around the city of Tskhinvali.

    Second reason, the concentrated artillery attack at 24:00 on August 7 announced to everyone Georgia planned to invade South Ossetia. This told every Ossetian and Russian Peacekeeper what Georgia was planning to do, even though their artillery fire was effective at destroying Ossetian infrastructure and citizens, as well as Russian Peacekeepers who had no artillery to respond. But the Ossetians did not give up ground and the Georgian attack became stuck in many areas, except Tskhinvali, where the 200 or fewer defenders were overwhelmed by 2,000 Georgian attackers.

    Georgian tanks became victims of newer Russian anti-tank weapons when they tried to attack the central Russian Peacekeeper base. Their tank assault collapsed, as their tanks were annihilated.

    Having failed to reach the Roksky tunnel, the primary Georgian attack collapsed, at 14:00 Regular Russian troops of the 19th Motor Rifle Division crossed the border in 2 reinforced Battalions supported by Russian Air Force aircraft. These were the first ready units of the Russian 58th Army in the south of the country. Georgian aircraft had been bombing South Ossetia since morning, they withdrew after spotting Russian aircraft. With no air cover and tanks with Russian flags spotted in the distance the Georgian Army retreated. It was at this time that many refugees began fleeing north after the first battle “officially” ended with reinforced Ossetian units arriving ahead of the Russian columns.

    And that is what happened, what is not mentioned.

  25. John Swinton, Chief of Staff for the New York Times, in 1953 wrote the following concerning the freedom of press: “There is not such thing at this date in world’s history… You know it and I know it. There is not one of you who dares to write your honest opinions, and if you did, you know beforehand that it would never appear in print… The business of the journalists is to destroy the truth… To sell his country and his race for his daily bread… We are the tools and vessels of rich men behind the scenes… We are intellectual prostitutes”

    1. We’re so very lucky to have The Internet, I wonder how soon US Govt. (elite) would figure that out and try to destroy it under various pretexts.

      Well – a lot of freedom had been taken on the pretext of “War with terror”, so, imagine how the remaining can be taken on a “War with Russia” pretext.

  26. What BS. This woman and girl are clearly lying. How do they know who was dropping bombs on them? And Fox did let them both say what they wanted to say.

    Liberals are such idiots.

    1. It was obvious when Georgian troops in US MARPAT uniforms wearing US body armor, and carrying American weapons attacked them.

    2. Says the guy who (probably) supports neoconservative imperialism and elected Bush. Good work dragging the world down this mess.

    3. Because Russian Army had arrived only 14 hours after the bombing of the city started.

      This is SO cynical…

      You know what – when you will see nuclear blast in YOUR US sky – then you can be certain – it’s Russian. That you can be sure of.

    4. It may well be that few Americans can tell the difference between Russian troops and Georgian troops, but those people live there. They’re far more likely to know who was bombing them than you do.

  27. “clearly lying” – right Charly…

    god… you think it’s impossible to tell the difference between US backed, trained and equipped Georgian army and the Russians? “liberals are such idiots” – what the hell has that got to do with anything?
    nothing is black and whiet in war. But you would think it was when you watch much of western, especially US media when they ignore the fact that Georgia invaded South Ossetia where there were Russian peacekeeping forces and started killing people. A huge number of people from South Ossetia blame Saashkashvili . He broke a 1992 agreement.

    Russians are obviously no angels, but let’s be honest. The Georgians (with US backing) knew what they were doing and knew what they were provoking.

  28. Watching the stupid twins (Bush and McCain) pitch this whole incident as a blatant, unwarranted invasion of Georgia and having the national media let them go uncorrected puts me in mind of watching a hometown ball game. The opposition player slides across homeplate while our catcher is back at the backstop looking for the ball. Never-the-less, the umpire calls the runner out and the home crowd roars its approval. How many times do you watch such cheesey crap before you quit supporting the home team?

  29. Leaving in America for almost 14 years I am amazed how the media is one sided. Every one in U.S. media was blaming Russia for luck of free press and here we are living in a Democratic country and to hear the truth is impossible. No one is telling the truth, they only report what they want people to believe. I am honestly amazed how press is controlled by one party or another. To justify the invasion on any country U.S. will show us the regular Americans how World is better off if we invade every country we can and bring a democracy, so ironic, it makes me laugh. Before we go in build a Democracy in other countries we should open eyes to our own citizens and be open and honest about events in the World. I grew in Kazakhstan and I guess lived in Russia during the Cold War. What Americans do not understand that it was a good life; we had no poverty, we went to school for free, we went to college for free, perhaps life was not glamorous but no one was controlling our lives like Americans think.

    I am so sick and tired of justifications that U.S. government gives to us for invading different countries, to take one side over the other. Who gave them the right to decide what is right and what is wrong? I am just so outraged I cannot even find the right words. Georgia is one many countries that is sponsored by U.S. and will close their eyes on thousands of people being killed just because they disagree with the Government and our Government supports that, WOW! Welcome to a Free and Democratic country.

    I am so happy I found this site. I can express my outrage and my opinion and meet people who think that the wrong has to be stopped. Thanks you!

    1. Elena,

      “Who gave them the right to decide what is right and what is wrong?”

      Who gave them the right? People like you. People who take their wealth and talent and energy to America and serve indirectly or directly to the mayhem that America is unleashing on the world and has been unleashing on the world ever since it found its character. Millions and millions of people like you, who make up the better part of America since the last one hundred years. You say that life was good in your former country. Then why did you leave? Because it was not glamorous? Or because you felt that you were on the wrong side of the gun? Well, you are on the right side of the gun now. Why complain about “your” government and “your” media?

    2. I’ve spent 12 years in the US and after the Iraq invasion I’ve left the US – went back to Russia.

      So, every person that cares about the future of the world not being some distopian-techno totalitarian (the “Matrix” movie is one good example of what the US elite will drag the world ultimately) – should move from the US, even to Canada. Those that share the Russian culture, should move to Russia.

      Granted, it’s not as “glamorous” (although there are more BMWs on the street of Moscow then anywhere I’ve seen in the US), but Russia is on the road to The Temple, and it is not Zionist Temple by the way.

      And quality of the Internet is much better. Who can get fixed IP address, with 100Base-T connection at 100 Mbit/sec connection for $35 in the US?

      And generally – Govt. and elites are not working as hard on trying to make people UNHAPPY – so they would consume more of the garbage products and services, most of which are not giving any true happiness.

      So, welcome to Russia, those that can. The rest – welcome to Canada.

      1. Vassili, one word Chechnya! I wouldn’t trust Russia any further than I would the US. Out of the frying pan and into the fire right?

        If you went back to fight to make your country a better place, good for you. I’ll stay here and fight for my country and people. Your rants about nuclear bombs landing in the US are all I needed to hear! Anyone who believes that dropping nukes will somehow benifit the world is either warped, brainwashed, or ignorant (possibly all three).

        The happiest people I have ever met had very little, definately not high speed internet. You can act as proud as you want about your BMW’s but first look at your government’s past and it’s future. Also take a good hard look at how they got those beemers before you decide it’s so great (corruption and orginized crime). Your defense of Mother Russia is week at best.


        1. To Brad Smith:
          “Anyone who believes that dropping nukes will somehow benefit the world is either warped, brainwashed, or ignorant (possibly all three).”

          Yes, about 70% of ordinary US citizens. And yes, more and more people outside of the US believe the same but are thinking about rather different targets.

          Looks like we’re getting there – closer by day!
          And ‘Peace’ is just another dirty, contaminated word like pretty much everything else these days.

          No choice brother – take your side … and you will choose right – there isn’t much choice anyway!

  30. “There’s always a method to the madness….”

    At the time of the Georgian sneak attack on Ossetia there were at least twelve hundred US troops in Georgia, mostly acting as trainers and under the cover of NATO. According to Russian news reports some of these have been identified among the Georgian Army dead and some have been captured.

    There were also other non-Georgian mercenaries, as the Russians call them, from Ukraine and also from Israel, as Israeli sources themselves have chronicled, crowing about it in fact in the early hours before the Russian counterattack.

    After Ivan Susanin above, therefore, there can hardly be any doubt that elements of the US government and military knew about the attack in advance, participated in it, and perhaps even instigated it.

    Whether or not Saakashvili is a wild card, there is little doubt that the US had advance knowledge and could have stopped the attack if it wished.

    Surely there were also US contingencies for any foreseeable results, including leaving the Georgians in the lurch militarily if they should need actual US intervention to sustain the attack and occupation, and with scenarios like “humanitarian aid” in the aftermath developed ad hoc and later.

    That this is all madness on the part of the US is patent. What the method to the madness may be is another question.

    The most obvious sign of method is the timing. The Georgians, apparently with US collusion, timed the sneak attack to the opening of the Olympics when Putin and Bush could talk to one another face to face.

    This was likely designed on the calculation that Putin might be checked from any immediate response, while the new and tentative president of the Russian Federation would not act on his own.

    This in turn was likely toward the end of giving the Georgians enough time for a fait accompli in Ossetia, to be used in later negoiations.

    The immediate intervention of Sarkozy with a peace plan in hand may also have been planned in advance, however the Georgian sneak attack developed.

    For all that, this answers the question of timing and method only tactically. Strategically one must still ask: why now?

    The fingerprints of the Neo-Cons and the Likud are all over the event. But strategically and politically the question is what was so pressing that they do this now, rather than months ago or months from now.

    In this context it is almost unavoidable to conclude that the method of the madness strategically and politically involves the upcoming Democrat and Republican convention, and is designed to reformulate the foreign policy context of the presidential election, that is, to lessen the status of Obama and to increase the chances of the Republicans and McCain.

    That the Georgian sneak attack backfired is not to the point. That possibility may well have been in the initial equations.

    How this will actually influence the conventions and the election is also less important that how it might have been intended to do so.

    Just for starters may one suggest that the timing and purpose are deliberately designed to distract the American electorate from the occupation of Iraq and the possibile attack of Israel or the US or both on Iran, and also to keep the Democrats off balance, especially in regard to foreign policy.

    The timing in my opinion, therefore, is in effect to expand and enforce a continuation of the policy of having the mainstream media decrease even more day to day coverage of Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan.

    This does not mean that other aims and purposes are not present. Israel, for example, has been trying to restart a cold war between the US and Russia for some years, and the American military-industrial complex needs an excuse to rebuild and to justify new expenditures on the scale of the obscenely expensive and now obsolete Stealth program.

    But that just means that the various lunacies are synergistic.

    With Rove and the Neo-Cons about, the timing cannot be considered accidental, and the immediate context politically is surely the conventions and the election.

    This may even explain the lapse of Fox in giving both sides of the story, seemingly by accident.

    As in much advertising and public relations, what is important is not whether the attention is good or bad, but simply the attention.

    With Georgia and Russia in the forefront of the news, Iraq and Iran and Afghanistan go to the far backburners with few, if any, of the audience noticing, and with attention on a whole new set of unexpected issues as potential political hay for the Republicans and in regard to future US foreign policy.

    1. “But that just means that the various lunacies are synergistic.” That just about sums up our foreign policy! People who continue to look for one simple explanation are never going to find it. Groups of lunatics running in packs with various goals and ideas, that is what we currently live with. I know it’s nothing new, but the power they have consolidated is.


  31. One has no idea how seriously Obama takes Zbigniew Brzezinski as a foreign policy adviser, nor for that matter how seriously Brzezinski takes Obama.

    The Georgian sneak attack on Ossetia and the Russians, as well as the Poles getting at least part of the additional remuneration they asked for in return for accepting the missile shield, no doubt adds an important element to the mix.

    From past behavior, and despite his incompetent game, Brzezinski is surely ready for more play at the Grand Chessboard with the Russians, if indeed he did not have a role sub rosa in engineering it.

    Will this be centrally featured at the Democrat Convention?

    If Obama takes him seriously, even just for the purposes of getting elected, the conventions may well be cast, respectively, as Churchill versus John F. Kennedy.

    While the electorate sleeps.

    Incidentally, has anyone heard anything interesting or unexpected from Ron Paul and the “revolution” recently?

      1. from Ron Paul.

        Dear Friend of Liberty,

        I am writing you with very exciting news about the upcoming Rally for the Republic in Minneapolis and I wanted you, one of my strongest supporters, to be among the first to know.

        First, I want to again thank you for your thoughts and concern about Carol. I am very happy to say she is doing much better and though I am still very concerned, I am cautiously optimistic of a full recovery.

        Now for the news.

        I am happy to announce that Country Music Superstar Sara Evans will perform as a special treat for Rally for the Republic attendees. Sara Evans, a multi-platinum recording artist and 2006 Academy of Country Music Female Vocalist of the Year, will bring her remarkable talents to an already stellar cast of performers and speakers for this kick off of my Campaign for Liberty.

        1. Thanks, Brad–I had already gone there to see what Paul might have to say about the Georgian sneak attack on Ossetia.

          I did find this:

          but it difficult to make sense of what Paul is trying to say. He seems to be under the impression that the Russians, mimicking the United States, made a “preemptive strike” on Georgia.

          Come again?

  32. That video is from 2002 he is talking about our preemptive policy and how it could effect Russian policy on Georgia. At that time there had been problems with terrorist who were staging in Georgia for attacks against Russians. So basically Ron Paul was saying that what’s good for the goose is good for the gander so we had better beware what we get started.


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