The No-Fly Zone Was Not Over Nebraska

Via Daniel Larison, the latest telling of what must be the biggest whopper of the 21st century:

Well, we were not involved in the world before 9/11, and look what happened.

That’s Karl Rove, on Fox News Sunday with Chris Wallace. Of course, there’s no reason to pick on Fox. Do you think anyone would have contradicted Rove on one of the non-Murdoch networks?

47 thoughts on “The No-Fly Zone Was Not Over Nebraska”

    1. Well i have to say that i am far from ignorant.
      What puzzles me is.. Why is it that all of a sudden people are so up in the air about the price of a barrel of oil?
      No matter how high these prices go, we are all still going to buy it.
      What im concerned about is a man like Obama running for the highest position know in this country and him making statments that he is completely clueless to. You can tell he has no military knowledge. For some reason he keeps slamming the Captains that run units in Iraq and Afghanistan. Heres a little piece of info for ya Obama…. Captains DO NOT run units! Do your homework before you go on national tv and make a joke out of yourself and the people who support you.
      And stop slamming our military…you know nothing about them.
      Plus you have family ties that link you outside the United States……. you shouldnt even be allowed to run for President and have that level of information. With a Muslim background you could easily forsake this country. I for one am not willing to take that risk on you.

      1. With a Muslim background you could easily forsake this country. I for one am not willing to take that risk on you.

        Bah! The last Christian President screwed up the country so bad even Cuba looks good by comparison (hey, at least they have subsidized health care there). Gimme my Buddhist President NOW!

        But seriously, you’re doubting his ability and/or patriotism because of his “Muslim background”? The Moronic Index of such a statement is so high I can only assume you’re a) a troll, or b) Tim R. trying to rile us up. Well sorry buddy, it’s not April 1st yet.

        1. Sites like these are so funny! Its like a non-stop day time drama. Do you people honestly think that all of these blogs and comments are going to make a diffrence?
          If so then you are all living in a dream world.
          American Presidents come and go, Wars come and go.
          Its a cycle that will go on for time unknown. Even the Bible tells us that. I for one support our troops and i honestly support this war. You can say what you want it doesnt really matter. The fact remains that all you are doing is putting words on a web site. The true action is being taken as we all type but men and women we will probablly never meet.
          As for Tim R. i think he is the only one on here that isnt sugar coating anything… and for the record Tim, Captains no longer run units….only NCOs do. That policy was changed back in 1989.

        2. Sites like these are so funny! Its like a non-stop day time drama. Do you people honestly think that all of these blogs and comments are going to make a difference?

          Potentially. They furnish grassroots forces with needed information and erode the legitimacy of dominant institutions in society.

          I for one support our troops and i honestly support this war. You can say what you want it doesnt really matter.

          Then you admit that your support for the war has no rational basis? Way to secure a rhetorical defeat for yourself.

          The fact remains that all you are doing is putting words on a web site. The true action is being taken as we all type but men and women we will probablly never meet.

          Try googling “antiwar demonstration”.

          As for Tim R. i think he is the only one on here that isnt sugar coating anything…

          Except perhaps America’s atrocious imperial record and Israel’s innumerable depredations.

          The one you obviously dont read!

          Passage, chapter, book? Of course, not everyone here is Christian, so biblical quotations have limited appeal. That, and the fact that the Bible is a collection of books compiled, redacted, and expunged over three thousand years (and thus cannot be treated as divine writ even if it is so inspired), the verity of Christian theism is not a given, and the book itself is subject to differing interpretations.

          Whatever Christ would support, I’m pretty sure it’s not an murderous unnecessary war aimed at securing oil profits and rationalized by a series of falsifications. “Thou shalt not lie”, anyone?

      2. What puzzles me is.. Why is it that all of a sudden people are so up in the air about the price of a barrel of oil?
        No matter how high these prices go, we are all still going to buy it.

        In that case, you can kiss any hope of restoring the current account balance, and, by extension, your remaining financial solvency goodbye. As for me, I’m rejoicing, since I reside in Alberta where oil exists in abundance. That our cash comes at the expense of your worm-eaten imitation of the Roman Empire only thrills me all the more.

        And stop slamming our military…you know nothing about them.

        One doesn’t need to know the US military’s internal structure to know that it commits atrocities.

        And stop slamming our military…you know nothing about them.
        Plus you have family ties that link you outside the United States……. you shouldnt even be allowed to run for President and have that level of information. With a Muslim background you could easily forsake this country. I for one am not willing to take that risk on you.

        Your ignorance is manifest in your citation of the “Muslim background” canard. Obama, in fact, has no such background, having attended a parochial Catholic school during his time outside the United States, and has no ties to Islam. Your basic argument is little more than an extended genetic fallacy, as even if half of what you said were true we could not draw conclusions about Obama’s true loyalties, since Islam encompasses 1.3 billion people, most of whom admire much about the west.

        Honestly, “Army Mom”, you’re a living embodiment of the idiocy, bigotry, and autoritarianism that pervade the United States, and thus a prime example of why I am very happy I don’t live there. I have to wonder about your use of your filial status as an online moniker. Is there something to this cheap attempt at moral blackmail, or are you simply using this to give your hateful ideology a patina of patriotism?

        1. YOUR NOT EVEN AMERICAN SO WHY DO YOU THINK YOU HAVE AND OPINION HERE?
          AND I BELIEVE HER TITLE WAS “ARMY WIFE”.. YOU CANT EVEN GET THAT RIGHT.
          OH AND I TOO ATTENDED A CATHOLIC SCHOOL BUT NOT PART OF THE CATHOLIC FAITH…ANYONE CAN ATTEND THOSE

        2. YOUR NOT EVEN AMERICAN SO WHY DO YOU THINK YOU HAVE AND OPINION HERE?

          Because America’s actions affect other countries, and because of the common humanity between myself and those affected. I see no reason to limit my moral purview to those of my own nationality.

          AND I BELIEVE HER TITLE WAS “ARMY WIFE”.. YOU CANT EVEN GET THAT RIGHT.

          Not that I care. She’s still a shrill crypto-fascist who deserves all the contempt I can heap upon here.

          OH AND I TOO ATTENDED A CATHOLIC SCHOOL BUT NOT PART OF THE CATHOLIC FAITH…ANYONE CAN ATTEND THOSE

          That’s not the point. The point is that Obama never attended an Islamic madrassa, as was claimed in the widely disseminated rumour, and there is no evidence to support the “secret Muslim” thesis.

          Also, CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL

          BUT EVEN WITH CRUISE CONTROL, YOU STILL HAVE TO STEER

        3. OMG… cruise control? You people better be gettin paid for sitting around thinking up these cute come back lines… if not, you guys need to find hobbies!!
          But hey… it all goes right back to the ole “when other countries get in trouble they call on the US first” that way they can sit back and whine when it all doesnt go exactlly like they think it should. This gives them someone else to blame it all off on.
          Maybe its just venting that you all do because you are so jealous and want to be and American also. I cant blame you… Everyone tends to hate on the power that they know their country will never have. We love a good fight so bring it on!
          ~Dont forget to vote for McCain~

        4. But hey… it all goes right back to the ole “when other countries get in trouble they call on the US first” that way they can sit back and whine when it all doesnt go exactlly like they think it should. This gives them someone else to blame it all off on.

          And which countries might these be?

          Maybe its just venting that you all do because you are so jealous and want to be and American also. I cant blame you… Everyone tends to hate on the power that they know their country will never have. We love a good fight so bring it on!

          Jealous? The only war you’ve won since world war two (the Soviet contribution to which is never recognized) was the Gulf War, which involved America’s financial resources against a pitiful little country with the sole aim of expelling them from Kuwait and killing as many civilians as possible. You couldn’t take Vietnam, you couldn’t take Korea, and you can’t take Iraq- despite your vaunted military technology and your martial culture, America proves to be little more than the political equivalent of a cowardly bully when confronted with anything more formidable than a handful of armed locals. What about a brutal, quasi-authoritarian empire drowning in its own debt is there to be jealous of? Some of the highest poverty rates in the first world? Crime rates unequalled in the OECD? Press freedom right up there with such luminaries as Nicaragua and Togo? Or is military might all there is to it? In that case, seeing as the country will be bankrupt and begging China for case in ten or twenty years, your claim to “envy” is about to evaporate.

        1. “Iraqi security forces would not be able to salvage the situation. Even if all the Iraqi military and police were properly trained, equipped and truly committed, their 346,000 personnel would be too few. As it is, Iraqi soldiers quit at will. The police are effectively controlled by militias. And, again, corruption is debilitating. U.S. tax dollars enrich self-serving generals and support the very elements that will battle each other after we’re gone.

          This is Operation Iraqi Freedom and the reality we experienced. This is what we tried to communicate up the chain of command. This is either what did not get passed on to our civilian leadership or what our civilian leaders chose to ignore. While our generals pursue a strategy dependent on peace breaking out, the Iraqis prepare for their war — and our servicemen and women, and their families, continue to suffer.

          There is one way we might be able to succeed in Iraq. To continue an operation of this intensity and duration, we would have to abandon our volunteer military for compulsory service. Short of that, our best option is to leave Iraq immediately. A scaled withdrawal will not prevent a civil war, and it will spend more blood and treasure on a losing proposition.

          America, it has been five years. It’s time to make a choice.”

          [12 Former US Army Captains Washington Post October 16, 2007]

      3. I am sorry you don’t trust Muslim Americans, so-called Army Wife. Such prejudice among the enlisted should not be allowed.

        1. Let me correct you here dear…. Im not “enlisted” as you call it. Im a civilian. Theres a big diffrence.
          See, not paying attention.. AGAIN!

      4. You probably mean he might do something that we all know for sure the leaders of the U.S. are doing now with Isreal.

      5. “Well i have to say that i am far from ignorant”
        If you were ignorant how would you know?
        Are you aware that many high level U.S. government officials are Israeli and hold dual citizenship?

        You sir are very naive.

      6. Obama ‘Frightens Me’. The Bible has warned us that ‘A man will come from
        the East that will be charismatic in nature and have proposed solutions
        for all our problems and his rhetoric will attract many supporters!’

        When will our pathetic Nation quit turning their back on God and
        understand that this man is ‘A Muslim’….First, Last and always….and
        we are AT WAR with the Muslim Nation, whether our bleeding-heart,
        secular, Liberal friends believe it or not. This man fits every
        description from the Bible of the ‘Anti-Christ’!
        Who is Barack Obama?

        Probable U. S. presidential candidate, Barack Hussein Obama was born in
        Honolulu, Hawaii, to Barack Hussein Obama, Sr., a black MUSLIM from
        Nyangoma-Kogel, Kenya and Ann Dunham, a white ATHEIST from Wichita ,
        Kansas.

        Obama’s parents met at the University of Hawaii.

        When Obama was two years old, his parents divorced. His father returned
        to Kenya. His mother then married Lolo Soetoro, a RADICAL Muslim from
        Indonesia.

        When Obama was 6 years old, the family relocated to Indonesia. Obama
        attended a MUSLIM school in Jakarta. He also spent two years in a
        Catholic school.

        Obama takes great care to conceal the fact that he is a Muslim. He is
        quick to point out that, ‘He was once a Muslim, but that he also
        attended Catholic school.’

        Obama’s political handlers are attempting to make it appear that that he
        is not a radical.

        Obama’s introduction to Islam came via his father, and that this
        influence was temporary at best. In reality, the senior Obama returned
        to Kenya soon after the divorce, and never again had any direct
        influence over his son’s education.

        Lolo Soetoro, the second husband of Obama’s mother, Ann Dunham,
        introduced his stepson to Islam. Obama was enrolled in a Wahabi school
        in Jakarta.

        Wahabism is the RADICAL teaching that is followed by the Muslim
        terrorists who are now waging Jihad against the western world. Since it
        is politically expedient to be a CHRISTIAN when seeking major public
        office in the United States, Barack Hussein Obama has joined the United
        Church of Christ in an attempt to downplay his Muslim background. ALSO,
        keep in mind that when he was sworn into office he DID NOT USE THE HOLY BIBLE, INSTEAD HE SWORE HIS OATH UPON THE KORAN.. THE MUSLIM BIBLE!!

        Barack Hussein Obama will NOT recite the Pledge of Allegiance nor will
        he show any reverence for our flag. While others place their hands over
        their hearts, Obama TURNS HIS BACK to the flag and slouches. Do you want
        someone like this as your PRESIDENT?

        Let us all remain alert concerning Obama’s expected presidential
        candidacy.

        The Muslims have said they plan on destroying the US from the inside
        out, ONLY IF WE LET THEM!! And know that this something that no American wants after what happened on our homeland on 9/11. We Americans bleed RED, WHITE and BLUE!
        The Koran speaks of the Muslim nation awakening a mighty Eagle………. Americans hold the Bald Eagle as one of our most treasured figures… so maybe they have awoke the WRONG EAGLE!

    2. Fox? All television media is obsolete. All those that still watch the idiot box to be informed are by definition idiots.

  1. What's this? We are the liberators of the Iraqis and they welcome with open arms one of our stated "axis of evil" countries?

    Why are we still there?

  2. Well Mr. Rove, do you think America was never capable of becoming a global power because it was too busy putting down the southern rebellion during the administrations of Presidents La Follet and Dewey during the 1940s? If so, it’s hold the cool-aid Karl, because have a sneeky suspicion that those Harry Turtledove novels might not be historically accurate!

  3. This is an old lie used all the way from Bill Maher to Bush—“If only we’d been more engaged with the world instead of all curled up in an isolated ball…” With Maher the problem is stupidity; with Bush/Rove the problem is dishonesty.

    Pat Buchanan put this lie to bed 10 years ago in his books “A Republic, Not an Empire,” and “The Great Betrayal.” The one thing that can be absolutely said about America is that it has not minded its own business for many a decade now.

    1. Are you sure Maher said something like that? It doesn’t seem consistent with other things he’s said. I’ve only known him to say something stupid when he’s defending Israel.

      1. You bet I did, although I paraphrased his comment. Maher can be wildly inconsistent, ranging from semi-libertarian to boot-licking statist, depending on the issue and his mood at the time.

  4. (1) Why isn’t Karl Rove behind bars?

    (2) The most blatant, if still potential, whopper is:

    “If we were to give up Iraq with the third largest oil reserves in the world to the control of an Al Qaida regime or to the control of Iran, don’t you think $200 a barrel oil would have a cost to the American economy?”

    Oil was $29 per barrel in 2002. Oil has in 2008 already broken $103.

    Many analysts, with whom I concur, suggest a minimum of $200 per barrel if the United States or Israel attacks Iran.

    Rove is now tying $200 per barrel to giving up control of Iraq to (a) an “Al Qaeda regime”, which Al Qaeda, whatever it is, was unwelcome there under Saddam Hussein, and which is there now, in whatever form, because of American intervention and occupation, or (b) to Iran, which had just been defeated by Saddam Hussein, and whose regime, while he was an American ally, served as a buffer to Iran.

    That William Clinton was a pathological liar seems plausible enough. That is perhaps was why he was good at it. Or, as one wag suggested, why he lied even when he did not have to, “the sign of a true artist”.

    With Rove and Cheney and the Neo-Cons, the lies are often perverse and incredible on their face, but also planned far in ahead, as this one, and a sign of conspitators who actually know the truth, and busily occupy themselves with outflanking it, not only in regard to present behavior, but also in looking far ahead to future plans.

    Will McCain soon enough be parroting the same refrain?

    1. corr: “why he was so good at it”, “conspirators”. It is difficult sometimes to proofread in this little box, isn’t it?

    2. Iran wasn’t defeated by Saddam Hussein. Saddam attacked Iran and Iran repelled him.

      1. “On 20 July, the Security Council of the United Nations passed the US-sponsored Resolution 598, which called for an end to fighting and a return to pre-war boundaries. Iraq, which had lost important pieces of land over the course of the war, accepted the resolution. Iran, however, was loathe to surrender its gains when total victory seemed close at hand, and so the fighting continued.[30]

        By April 1988, however, the Iraqi forces had regrouped sufficiently to begin a new series of devastating attacks on the Iranians, and in quick succession recaptured the strategic al-Faw peninsula (lost in 1986 in Operation Dawn-8) and territory around Basra and also struck deep into the Iranian north, capturing much matériel.[2] Following these major setbacks, Iran accepted the terms of Resolution 598. However Iraq, which had seen major victories in the end of the war, thought at first it could invade Iran once more; in the end, Iraqi forces managed to make small gains in Khuzestan but were halted by the Iranians and so Iraq also accepted the terms and on 20 August 1988 peace was restored.

        The People’s Mujahedin of Iran started their ten day operation after the Iranian government accepted UN Resolution 598. While Iraqi forces attacked Khuzestan, the Mujahedin attacked western Iran and battled the Pasdaran for Kermanshah. Close air support from the Iraqis contributed to whatever gains the Mojahedin made. However, under heavy international pressure for ending the war, Saddam Hussein withdrew his fighter aircraft and the sky opened for the Iranian airborne forces to be deployed behind Mojahedin lines. The operation ended in a defeat for the Mojahedin. Casualty figures range from 2,000 to as high as 10,000.”

        [wikipedia]

        It was a see-saw over a decade, and very much like World War I, but in the end the smaller Iraqi forces fought the Iranians to slightly better than a stalemate, and it was Iran that was contained to the West.

        Any value I put on the matter is not in terms of whether Hussein was right to attack Iran at the beginning of the war, it is simply an evaluation in the context of US interests after the war, which were served by Saddam Hussein and the Baath in power in Iraq, as US allies, and Iran stalemated in regard to the Gulf, and Basra in particular.

        In regard to both the Iran-Iraq War and the First Gulf War, British post-colonial divisions, designed to maximize later conflict, as, for example, in Nigeria and India, were key.

  5. …We are the liberators of the Iraqis and they welcome with open arms one of our stated “axis of evil” countries?…

    Paulite,

    Now you have to understand the rules of the debate my friend. Never, I mean never introduce facts or logic into the debate.

  6. or dare to even THINK about questioning ANY of the gaping-hole ridden oxymoronic emotive “arguments” either…

    we have ALWAYS been at war with EastAsia….

    “Paulite”???

    pretty subtle-as-a-brick….that(7th Grade namecalling)does encourage civility and discource doesnt it?????

    one of the rules OF DEBATE(my friend? ala McManiac)is to make sure YOU define the words AND terms of the debate UPFRONT….

  7. Well i have to say that i am far from ignorant.

    Good, so maybe you can tell me why whenever we take their word for it and send the Army to do something for the US, they f**k it up good and steal tons of money in the process?
    No one has more respect for the abilities of America’s armed forces then me. When it comes to destroying property and people they are tops in the world. And the next time that is what needs to be done, we will call them, and impose a draft, so we can get some half-decent personnel in there.
    In the meantime, while destroying the lives and property of other nations is not in our best interest, they can take a vacation or something, or maybe we could spend the time straightening out the books, m’okay?
    Cause if we send the armed forces to do anything except those two things, they will fail miserably. And no matter what we tell them we want done, death and destruction will be the result. That’s what they do.

  8. We’re occupiers…We didn’t liberate anyone..We systematically destroyed a country..It’s not even a legal, just war..It’s an extension of a brutal foreign policy that began in July 1990 when our Ambassador assured Saddam Hussein that we would not respond if he took back Iraq’s lost province of Kuwait ( broken off by the British about 90 yrs ago. )
    Come on neo-con knuckle-heads begin to tell me how much we’ve helped the Iraqis with our propaganda ( Kuwaiti babies being thrown out of incubators, oh my! ) and our bombing and our sanctions and our depleted uranium tipped missiles and shells causing horrible birth defects and cancers..and now the humiliation of occupation…
    The only “conservatives” worth a damn read Chronicles and the American Conservative and American Free Press…In short, the paleos are thinkers..the rest-not so much..Read Day of Reckoning by PJB, the chapter titled The Gospel of George Bush is worth the price alone.

  9. Interventionism is the incubator of terrorism…Read Washington’s Farewell Address for a grand synopsis of a truly wise foreign policy..

  10. It’s beyond pathetic to say that army captains do not run units.

    Last I heard, a company is a unit, and captains typically are company commanders, although sometimes first lieutenants are.

    The word itself indicates “head.” What do heads of things do
    but run them?

    1. “During the Vietnam War, the U.S. Army lost large numbers of captains who resigned their commissions after long and repeated combat deployments. The same worrying trend is being seen again in Iraq.

      In response, the Army is preparing hefty bonuses to entice captains to stay on active duty. Captains — essentially the junior executives of the Army — often command companies of about 120 soldiers. They account for the single-largest group of officers in the Army.

      Capt. Carl Chaker, a 27-year-old West Point graduate, has done two tours in Iraq. When he and many of his fellow captains talk about their futures, they see only more time in Iraq.

      ‘A large percentage of them have decided to get out,’ Chaker said. ‘It’s mostly the repeated deployments. They say at the end of six years, half of their careers … (have been spent) in Iraq. They’re behind creating a life at home.’

      To keep those wavering officers, the Army has come up with an unprecedented plan: $20,000 bonuses to get captains to remain on active duty for a few more years. They are also dangling offers of graduate school and allowing captains to choose where they are stationed.”

      [Bowman NPR excerpt:

      http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10108227%5D

  11. You know, I read all about your constitution and ammendments and what the foundinding fathers would have meant, what would they have said and what may have have done..

    When it all comes down to the real deal it matters not!!

    Everybody knows in their “heart of hearts” what is true and what is not. Everybody knows what is good and what is not.

    Everybody should know what to to do when faced by a choice between the right thing and the wrong thing, and vote with their “heart” because that should always be true…

    “kick the bastards out”

  12. “sorry” cancel one “have” in the above. Too many red wines

    Late here, around 11:30 pm 04/03/08, “sorry” again, I meant in your language 03/04/08.

  13. For any Canadan to think Canada is not going to suffer any ill effects from failure of US economy is unwise.
    Just because your currency is now more on par with dollar is no point to rejoice in as the reality is the US dollar has sunk down to your level not yours risen to ours and as the US dollar continues to weaken so to will yours.
    Bank of Toronto is not having an easy time of it already.
    As the US economy delines its one most viable commercial means is its military and Canada is already locking itself into following Brit/US in making war for profit to just a select sector.
    For all the war crimes committed in the last 20 years by US with Canadian involvement not one of the instigators of such will be punished and in fact are being handsomely rewarded.
    Men like Rove do not just appear on these broadcast they recieve a stipend for doing so, and Roves is almost 50K when one figures in add on to fees such as room, travel expenditures etc.
    He is his own buisnes.

    1. I did not say Canada as a whole would not suffer. I said Alberta in particular would profit handsomely from the continued high price of oil.

  14. I read through these comments and I get the same sense of deja vu about this year’s political election–as with the last 5 elections–that it merely serves as a referendum on the narrowest viewpoints possible. That is, the type of arguments like: what does Candidate X say about the troops in Iraq, what does Candidate Y say about the Constitution, and “whose side are you on?”

    Just some thoughts to ponder…those who support the war effort should think about what it gains us, and whether the costs (human, financial, moral, etc.) benefit US citizens in the long run. (I would argue, they do not.) The points about “supporting the troops” are ridiculous: most of us empathize with their situation. For the Constitutional scholars, a good number of the public don’t even know who their senator or representative is. (That’s a shame. I say, re-sell the Constitutional arguments, but don’t assume people know anything about their genesis.) For the military tacticians here, we aren’t talking about trench warfare (WWI) and Blitzkriegs and aerial bombardments of infrastructure (WWII) or even Vietnamese-style counterinsurgency. The Iraq-Afghanistan scenario is political and economic warfare–orchestrated by the Internet, suicide bombings, and the mass-messaging of mainstream media against the populaces of both the “enemy” and the US citizenry. It is people like Rove who are meddling in affairs well above their intellectual capacity to comprehend that are sucking the US into a black hole.

    This election is NOT about the politicians and the message-makers who are fast becoming irrelevant, but about the people’s ability to unify around the critical problems facing this country. We should stop thinking about the “global agenda,” “world peace,” nation-building, and so forth, and desist from nitpicking over Candidate X or Y. We should start thinking about holding officials accountable for the solvency and security of the US. We should go to the voting booths, for sure, but also message our representatives, talk to our neighbors and work associates, and be more critical of the “mainstream messaging.” Critical thinking about the ideas, versus the politicians, is most important.

    1. I agree with what you say. I point out that my recounting of the Iran-Iraq war is relevant in this important context: the United States did not attack and occupy Iraq, in either the First or Second Gulf War in pursuit of US interests, however defined, in the area, but mainly in the interests of another country, Israel.

      Oil was not the the moving force, though in a subsidiary sense it was the bait, and British interests also played a part. In the event, however, oil proved a mirage in both wars.

      Iraq was not the enemy of the United States in any way, though a problem to both Israel and Saudi Arabia.

      Interesting enough, the case can be made that Baathist and secular Iraq, whether under Hussein or someone else, and even with a few nuclear weapons that could not be used, was less a threat to Israel than what has now developed.

      But that is by the way for the moment.

      Iran is no threat to the United States now. And attacking Iran, or allowing Israel to attack Iran with American approval, will quickly convert disaster into catastrophe.

      Structurally this is not as new a pattrn as it seems, and the influence of Zionism and the Israel lobby is at least in part only the manifestation of a deeper problem.

      An aspect of the pattern is seen in the late Roman Republic, and is treated in detail by a certain Christian Meier in his brilliant Res Publica Amissa, which I recall may now be available English translation.

      The key is understanding how a patron-client relationship, extended to foreign policy, has disastrous consequences for a Republic.

      This will be hard going for those whose interest is strictly contemporary political analysis, but it is well worth the effort for those who have the bent.

      It is exactly thinking at this deeper and more difficult structural level, and not just economically or socially but institutionally and politically, that is called for if the United States is going to survive very much longer.

      To be very frank, I have come to the point that, for me, a United States without liberty and the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights has no interest or persuasivess.

      Lawless countries where one can live well are a dime a dozen.

      Having lived through the Vietnam years and watched the country on the edge of destroying itself, to stop just at the brink, there is, at this much later date, not enough Candide in me to see the present involvement of the US in the Middle East, which on all counts is worse than Vietnam and Korea, as anything but a real determination by the American people to destroy themselves, their liberty, and their Constitution, which Constitution, with some literature and few outstanding geniuses like Charles Sanders Peirce, is about the only thing a later humanity will ever find worthy of remembering about this sad, blundering, murderous, incompetent, greedy, and seemingly suicidal proto-empire.

  15. corr: “Interestingly enough”, “pattern”. Pardon this and any other typos I still did not catch.

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