Slaughter “A Product of Circumstance”

Israeli foreign minister Tzipi Livni announced today that the Palestinian civilians killed by the IDF in Gaza were “a product of circumstance.”

Livni recognizes that the carnage may present a public relations problem for the Israeli government: “These matters will present us with a complicated task … The consequences, in the context of civilians casualties, are something we have to deal with, among ourselves and in facing the world.”

Livni need worry little about either the U.S. Congress or the bulk of the American media. Her “product of circumstance” explanation will be taken as sufficient absolution regardless of how many hundreds of corpses of dead women and children are uncovered in Gaza in the coming days and weeks.

And whatever Rules of Engagement the IDF used will be irrelevant. It wouldn’t be fair to blame the Israeli military for “circumstances,” after all.

71 thoughts on “Slaughter “A Product of Circumstance””

  1. Ole Tipsy left forgot to also throw in: “For duty and Humanity !!”

    So much for the compassionate leadership of a woman. Imagine that. Her explanation sounds like Curly Howard of the Three Stooges…”They was victims of Soi-cum-stance”. That really sums up how bad the leadership is, when you start paraphrasing the Three Stooges as to why of hundreds of people died !!!

  2. The slaughter of innocent civilians is just as much the fault of Hamas as it is the IDF. Don’t get me wrong, I hate the fact that innocent civilians died but who is really at fault?
    Hamas is an organiazation that has genocidal objectives. It openly seeks to destroy the entire state of Israel and replace it with a radical Islamic theocracy. And they are cowards who fire their rockets from behind women and children. They hide out in hospitals and schools. They willfully and recklessly put innocent people’s lives at risk. But you will only blame Israel for everything. No, Israel should not have used white phosphorous and yes, too many innocent people died. Israel’s use of force was disproportionate, I’ll give you that much. But if some maniac was firing rockets at YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD and you had to run to bomb shelters every five minutes, what you would do? Would you want to sit by and do nothing? Could you live like that? Israel pulled out of Gaza and the people their chose to ELECT Hamas. Clearly, they did not choose wisely!

    1. you dont make any sense.

      the tiny amount of rocket fire is a law enforcement problem, just like 9/11 was a law enforcement problem… but it was blown up into an excuse to start the “global war on terror” because that was the AEI/PNAC/likud plan…

      …just like sharon’s visit to the al aqsa mosque was most likely the opening ceremony of the PNAC plan.

      if netanyahu thought 9/11 was “very good”, it’s not all that big a stretch to imagine that the rocket attacks were also “very good”, because they give israel the excuse to terrorize palestinians.

      that’s just how your minds work, and apparently the policy makers, the people behind the whole israel project, are adrenaline junkies, or suicides looking for a place to happen, or just flat out evil.

      i notice that the jpost is trotting out a big gas discovery to cheer israelis up after their defeat… does that mean you can call off your AEI/PNAC leashdogs and your energy acquisition project, or what?

      oh. i forgot. you still need to cleanse the palestinians from their high ground in the west bank, just in case the methane gets away from us…

    2. Seriously now dear Tim R. do you think that repeating that same canard makes it more true as you near the thousand times limit or something?

      Hamas does not make the decisions for the IDF. The Israeli are responsible for their own actions and the consequences of it. It was a war of pure choice, and only Israel’s choice. They made their minds up at latest in june 2008 while the ceasefire negotations were going on. Nevertheless they could have changed their minds and prevented it, they could have stopped the qassams, but they wanted their war from the start.

      And they wanted to inflict insufferable damage and casualties on the Palestinians, break their will and beat them into permanent submission. In short dehumanize them.

      They call it the Dahiya Doctrine. Ha’aretz reported it 5 october 2008, it entails in the words of Eisenkot: “We will wield disproportionate power against every village from which shots are fired on Israel, and cause immense damage and destruction. From our perspective, these are military bases,” he said. “This isn’t a suggestion. This is a plan that has already been authorized.”

      It is laudable that you say you hate innocent civilians, but the calculus in the Israeli implemented doctrines and strategy prohibits such frivolous humane considerations.

      They partly try to wipe the blot off with propaganda, still with considerable success. But they are beginning to worry. I usually find a simple test, if honestly asked, immediately clears most things up. What if the situation were reversed?

    3. I see I typed “It is laudable that you say you hate innocent civilians” I meant of course to type “…innocent civilians being killed.” (that’s my own fault not that of my Israeli keyboard I assure you :-)

    4. “But if some maniac was firing rockets at YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD and you had to run to bomb shelters every five minutes, what you would do? Would you want to sit by and do nothing?”

      Its always (a) Bonb People, or (b) Do Nothing , with your kind isn’t it, Mr R?
      Never a (c).

      Is this “maniac” imprisoned in a concentration camp of my “NEIGHBOURHOOD”‘s making, per chance?

    5. Would I “do something”? Sure. But I would do something that made sense. I would deal with the maniac without killing every human being who had the misfortune to live near the maniac’s launch site. Isn’t that what you would do?

      1. Accepting for the sake of argument that the Israelis were fired on from that building – I would like to know if they would have zapped the whole damn building like this if they had known that there were some Jewish Israeli families inside.

        Isn’t it obvious that they would not have?

        And isn’t that all we need to know to consign their excuses to the garbage heap?

      2. But I would do something that made sense. I would deal with the maniac without killing every human being who had the misfortune to live near the maniac’s launch site. Isn’t that what you would do?

        That is certainly what civilized human beings would do as a matter of course. Unfortunately, neocon zionists and their enablers don’t fall into that category. Proportionality of response, IAW the Augustinian Just War theory that is arguably the closest humankind has ever come to putting “civilized” boundaries to warfare, is anathema to these despicable creatures, to say noting of doing anything that “makes sense.”

    6. Aw, c’mon Tim R.Oll. I know you get your jollies by shoving a stick into the hornets’ nest and then sitting back and watching the furious buzzing. Clearly your comments aren’t serious. You deflect and ignore all criticisms, including those that refute root and branch your endlessly repeated nonsense. I don’t think you’re as stupid as you let on, or as evil perhaps.

      You want to be taken seriously? Try defending your propositions. Try, say, telling us why a 100 to 1 kill ratio of Palestinians and Israelis is equivalent and proportionate in your mind. Try a logical defense of any of your hornet-stirring statements.

      In the meantime, maybe the rest of us would be better off not rising to your bait all of the time, as fun as it is to tango.

    7. Tim R.

      Hamas is not firing rockets into Israel from behind women and children. At least the latest act of criminality has proven the allegation to be a completely false advertisement for Israel’s ongoing genocide. Gaza is the most densely populated area in the world. Where do you suggest Hamas should fire its rockets from? And how about Lebanon. Were the Hizbullah rockets fired from the most norther reaches of Lebanon, when Israel bombed that country, resulting in the death of 1200 civilians? the fact of the matter is that the Palestinians have every right to defend themselves, while the occupiers simply cannot put that argument forward. Any argument of self defense by occupation forces is an argument in defense of occupation and aggression. Destroying more than 4000 Palestinians and killing over 1300 people the majority of whom are children and their mothers is only an argument that the aggressors can put forward as self defense. As Gerald Bernard Kaufman puts it in his speech before the British house of commons:

      “On Sky News a few days ago, the spokeswoman for the Israeli army, Major Leibovich, was asked about the Israeli killing of, at that time, 800 Palestinians-the total is now 1,000. She replied instantly that “500 of them were militants.”

      That was the reply of a Nazi. I suppose that the Jews fighting for their lives in the Warsaw ghetto could have been dismissed as militants.”

      Truly, The arguments that the Israel and its supporters, government or civilian, put forward is the argument of Nazis. Mix that with accusations of antisemitism leveled at those who criticize Israel, and there will be, as it is now, a monstrous propaganda against peace and humanity, as is the way with American and British and most of the Western media.

    8. I have to conclude that you must be PAID to be so stupid.


      How much does the Israel PAY you to vomit up such drivel?

      I simply REFUSE to believe that anyone with so many as TWO active brain cells could actually and seriously believe what you have written.

      For an organization that has “genocidal OBJECTIVES”, for example, why is it that it the Israel who has SUCCEEDED in committing genocide?

      I, too, want the Israel removed from the face of the earth–without the loss of even even so much as ONE drop of human blood; just like what happened to the USSR or Czechoslovakia. Seeking a political solution to this problem is not any “genocidal objective”.

      In any case, if I had to choose between an organization that is ACCUSED of having genocidal OBJECTIVES–and it is a quite lengthy ‘argument’, by the way–and an organization that COMMITTED genocide–that is, the I’D’F–I would choose the former.

      Otherwise, the ‘bottle rockets’ sent by Hamas were on the order of the retaliation of the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto against the Nazis: the Gaza strip has been under a severe food shortage and economic strangulation for quite some time.

    9. Tim R says: “But if some maniac was firing rockets at YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD and you had to run to bomb shelters every five minutes, what you would do? Would you want to sit by and do nothing?”

      A red herring followed by a non sequitur. First of all, the rocket fire had stopped. Secondly, given the territory that the rockets had been covering and the number of rockets actually fired, your idea that Israelis were “running to bomb shelters (hey, at least they HAVE shelters to run to if they had to) every five minutes” is an overblown joke that passes for fact for Israeli apologists. The idea that the only alternative is doing nothing is the same argument war enthusiasts give all the time, as though the only choice in life is to kill or not to kill. The lack of thought is staggering.

  3. It is so obscene and repugnant to me that the foreign minister of Israel can be so twisted and perverted. To make public these attiudes, is extremely damning and should prove to most
    people how depraved the Israelis are.
    We have all the images of the horrors Israel perpetrated on the imprisoned Gazans. The use
    of white phosphorous, point blank executions of children, demolitions of homes with civilians inside, direct hits by Israeli tanks on UN schools,on hospitals and targeted killings of
    medics, doctors and the public at large, all of this amounts to WAR CRIMES and crimes against
    The perennial victimhood of Israelis has been turned upside down. They now are VICTIMS of THE

    1. Teri,

      Put away your broad brush. The obscene acts are committed by individuals, not by a mythical “nation.” Nations don’t act; people do. Those that gave the order to bomb residential neighborhoods and those that are dropping those bombs are the one responsible for the casualties.

      I would venture to guess that there are countless Israelis that are quite appalled at what is being done in Gaza, just as I am outraged at what our evil government is doing to people in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere.

      It’s time to stop collectivizing and generalizing the acts of individuals and instead lay blame where it is due. That alone would bring us a step closer to a lasting peace.

      1. Steve Hogan writes:

        “I would venture to guess that there are countless Israelis that are quite appalled…”

        Oh REALLY?

        According to polls, 78% of Israelis – i.e., 98% of Jewish Israelis – approve of the Gaza massacre, sweetheart.

        1. Your source for these polls? Please cite a reputable poll. Ninety-eight percent? You can’t get 98% to agree on the time of day.

          Come on, Eric. You’re allowing your anger to cloud your judgment. Let’s focus on those who control policy, not on the nation as a whole.

        2. You are jumping to conclusions. Just because I didn’t provide a citation, you pronounce grandly that you *know* (with no evidence) that I’m making stuff up, allowing my anger to cloud my judgment.

          The poll numbers are from an article that was prominently featured here at a few days ago. It is by Neve Gordon, and it’s from The Guardian. I guess you don’t read the articles featured at this site?

          Anyway, here is the pertinent quote, and a link. And please, in future, do your reading — or google facts things for yourself, instead of assuming that people have made stuff up. It’s a waste of my time to have to document widely available information to someone who supposedly reads this site but doesn’t know what it reports from good sources:

          “… it is not so surprising that 78% of Israelis, or about 98% of all Jewish Israelis, support the war.”

  4. Israel has deliberately killed a high proportion of civilians. A country with the most high-tech arsenal on earth doesn’t “accidentally” do something like this.

    Israel, you can try to argue that you needed to kill a lot of civilians, in order to scare them or “teach them a lesson” or whatever, but please, do not insult everyone’s intelligence by trying to claim that you didn’t eagerly set out to commit a mass, general slaughter in Gaza.

    And please don’t say that the fact that you could have killed and maimed many more is proof that this slaughter was inadvertent. This is, not “Good Morning America”. We’re not going to sit here and smile and pretend that your asinine arguments make sense.

  5. Tim R.,

    Israel created the concentration camp that is Gaza, and it controls its borders and airspace. In accordance with the June cease-fire agreement, Hamas had stopped its rocket attacks on Isreal until Isreal unilaterally broke the cease-fire in November. Please note that the rocket attacks had stopped even though Isreal NEVER fulfilled its end of the bargain, which was to open Gaza’s borders to trade. Hamas, to the dismay of the Isreali government, has shown a willingness to negotiate. These overtures were rejected by Isreal. Isreal has the most modern military force in the middle east. The home-made rockets used by Hamas have caused little damage, even over the enitre 7 years they have been used.

    There is no equivocation about this – Isreal is totally at fault for this conflict and for the murdering of innocent civilians by the hundreds, if not thousands (if the toll of the years-long blockade of Gaza is taken into account). Rhetoric aside, the actions of Hamas are tame beside the depredations of the IDF.

    1. I think it was the SS that had a policy of killing 100 civilians for each German killed on occupied territory. It is both sad and disturbing that Israel is following this policy.

    1. Gosh, I wonder if our very own Tim R. is one such noble volunteer for the cause of Israeli propaganda.

  6. USA now is just a de facto colony of Israel. Disgusting state of affairs. Long live Gaza; long live Palestine.

  7. The culture of Israeli armed services has been demonstrated once again. They are finding that approximately 25% of the children murdered died from being shot in the brain. It is clear that they were murdered by Israeli snipers, and this is in keeping with killings in the West Bank. These are not soldiers, but satanic murderers.

    1. To be fair a small handful of Israelis went to jail instead of serving in Gaza this time around. We should not overlook the humanity expressed by the few still able to express it. Of course to the pro-war, and pro-state terror groups these brave souls are all traitors and deserving of harsh punishment.

        1. It probably wouldn’t be 98% of all Jewish Israelis, Eric; there are very many Druze Arabs, a small but not insignificant percentage of the Israeli Arab population (and full Israeli citizens), who hate their fellow Muslim and Christian Arabs nearly as much as the Jewish right does — although I cannot profess to make any claims as to their level of support for something as monstrous as the massacre in Gaza.

          The polls put out by the Israeli media have been laughable pieces of work to an extraordinary degree — I saw one showing overall support for the war in the low-to-mid 90s, while the Arab population of Israel (not to be confused with the much greater number of the disenfranchised Palestinians, living in the territories, but still overwhelmingly against the war) constitutes a figure in the range of around 20% of Israel’s citizens.

  8. Israel has no interest in peace, ego, the United States has no interest in peace. And in a display of the most egregious cynicism, our newly elected President, Abraham Delano Messiah, as Tom DiLorenzo so aptly describes him over at the Lew Rockwell site, hid behind the I’m-not-president excuse the whole time the Gaza atrocities were being perpetrated. He has been perfectly happy to comment on other foreign policy questions since the election but the one requiring the most moral reflection gets no comment. The rap on Obama is that he doesn’t like to make difficult decisions, bobbing and weaving in order to avoid doing so. His inclination to escalate in Afghanistan won’t be difficult to impliment, what would be difficult in that case would be to backtrack and acknowledge the inevitable. Also difficult would be his deciding in favor of prosecuting the Bush Administration officials responsible for war crimes. In that case he’ll hide behind Eric Holder, Holder will make that decision.

    Jack Kennedy was a very popular figure at the time of his election and had the support of an enthusiastic communications media throughout his presidency. But at no time did Kennedy ever receive the kind of adulation which has accompanied the election of Barak Obama. History has reserved that kind of worshipful treatment only to Adolf Hitler during the late 1930s as he was credited by Germans for undoing Versailles and restoring respect for Germany internationally. But even Hitler had the Rhineland and the Aunschluss behind him at that point, hard to make decisions about concrete steps which required a genuine willingness to take risk, so Hitler, in this respect anyway, deserved the praise he received. When, after Stalingrad, the war went badly, German adulation for Hitler turned to a kind of disgust, albeit a disgust expressed secretly. But if courage earned Hitler the respect of millions only to have it ebb as his risk taking turned sour, think of the outcome when an equivalent respect is accorded in the absence of courage and risk taking and the outcome is equally abysmal. Its called despair and such a dismal state of mind will be the necessary precondition if we are ever to bring an end to the slavery to which our politicians have so willingly submitted themselves when it comes to Israel.

  9. Axelmander hit the nail on the head. The ‘Dahiyeh Doctrine’ is an authorized policy. It proposes the use of indiscriminate and ruthless military force constituting collective punishment, aimed to deter acts of retaliation. It seems besides the point to Israeli officials that it has never worked.

    And how does this reflect on the Israeli (PR) assertions of moderation and discriminate targeting?

    ‘PR’ of ‘BS’?
    Excerpt from article:

    Last year several high-ranking Israeli army generals published an outline of their plan of retaliation against Lebanon in the event of an attempt by Hezbollah to attack Israel.

    Dubbed the “Dahiyeh Doctrine,” after the Arabic world for suburb, in reference to Hezbollah’s stronghold in Beirut’s southern suburbs, often simply called “Dahiyeh,” the Israeli generals said in the next war with the Lebanese Shiite organization they would “unleash unprecedented destructive power against the terrorists’ host nation of Lebanon.”

    Speaking to the Israeli daily newspaper Yediot Ahronoth, the head of Israel’s Northern Command, Gen. Gadi Eisenkot, announced that his Dahiyeh Doctrine for fighting Hezbollah had gained official approval. “This is not a threat,” he was quoted as saying, “This is policy.”

    Under Eisenkot’s plan, in the event of war the civilian centers from which Hezbollah operates will be viewed exclusively as military installations. If and when the next conflict breaks out, Israel, said a group of senior army generals, would refrain from chasing mobile Hezbollah missile teams around southern Lebanon. Instead, they would “create deterrence” by punishing Lebanon and the individual towns and villages that provide the terror group with its fighting force and cover.

    “We will wield disproportionate power against every village from which shots are fired on Israel, and cause immense damage and destruction,” said Eisenkot.

    In so doing, implementation of the Dahiyeh Doctrine would cause massive casualties among the Lebanese civilian population.

    What more needs to be said? Israeli officials (and military architects) convicted themselves of premeditated war crimes through their own words.

  10. Much of the debate is obscured by the issue of race. If we consider events from the perspective of human conduct, it is interesting how it becomes far more apparent to recognize the offenders and the victims relative to events.

  11. Fatah admits sending rockets into Israel while Israel was leveling Gaza, which its Zionist government has made into a concentration camp where the people live in misery, thanks to Israhell. What ugly Zionist governments we in the USA and Israel have.

  12. All this has managed to push out own barbarism in Iraq down the memory hole. I’ve been labeled a ” paleo dilettante ” for comparing the Israeli/Palestinian conflict to that of the Hutus and Tutsis.

    (She nailed me as a dilettante, but I’m not really a paleo, having no romantic attachment to a world that has ceased to be, and can probably never be recovered). It is an intra-tribal dispute going back to pre-history, and discussions of who hit who first are pointless. Ilana favors the Tutsi because they are “tall and better looking” and I favor them because I loved the Orlons. Whatever.

    As an American I’m far more concerned with our own moral and strategic blunders. America, like Israel, has an enemy within that is lazy and parasitic, resentful and dedicated to our destruction and is much more numerous, powerful and better armed than the Palestinians. To avoid any confusion, I speak, of course, of the U.S. Government.

  13. The recent shooting of fish in a barrel in Gaza has managed to push out own barbarism in Iraq down the memory hole. I’ve been labeled a ” paleo dilettante “ for comparing the Israeli/Palestinian conflict to that of the Hutus and Tutsis.

    (She nailed me as a dilettante, but I’m not really a paleo, having no romantic attachment to a world that has ceased to be, and can probably never be recovered). It is an intra-tribal dispute going back to pre-history, and discussions of who hit who first are pointless. Ilana favors the Tutsi because they are “tall and better looking” and I favor them because I loved the Orlons. Whatever. She also links to a manly man…

    There, I’ve said it: Afrikaners make the most spectacular paleos. “The modern Boer,” wrote Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, the popular British writer of the Sherlock Holmes mysteries, is “the most formidable antagonist who ever crossed the path of Imperial Britain.”

    And the modern paleo Boer is Dan Roodt. Roodt recently paid tribute to his Afrikaner ancestors’ “miraculous victory over the Zulu forces of Dingane during the Battle of Blood River on 16 December 1838,” when “450 Afrikaners defeated an army of at least 13,000 Zulus without any losses in their ranks.” Roodt’s coda:

    “The Day of the Covenant should be internationally celebrated among all those who believe that our Greco-Roman and Judaeo-Christian civilisation is still worth fighting for.”

    No (unmanly) weirdness there.
    Maybe, but it seems sort of strange that he would remember the slaughter of a large contingent of over-confidant natives armed with spears and hide shields and forget about the treatment of the Boers by the British, pioneering the modern technique of anti-guerilla warfare by rounding up and starving the Boer civilians until the fighters gave up, a bright marker on the road to the end of the “West”. Generals Sherman and Custer, call your office. Again, whatever.

    As an American I’m far more concerned with our own moral and strategic blunders. America, like Israel, has an enemy within that is lazy and parasitic, resentful and dedicated to our destruction and is much more numerous, powerful and better armed than the Palestinians. To avoid any confusion, I speak, of course, of the U.S. Government.

  14. We are constantly being told that Hamas is a mortal threat to the survival of Israel. Perhaps the next person who makes that comment will explain how a ragtag group of guerillas with no air force, no armor, no artillery, no precision-guided munitions, and without even helmets or uniforms will destroy the most powerful military and economic force in the Middle East, one that is connected by an umbilical cord to the world’s only superpower. Give me a scenario here.

      1. Well of course the claim has zero credibility. If anything Israel is a threat to the existence of Palestinians as a people who risk being erased as a nationality forever if Israel has its way.

        The Israeli aim in my opinion is to make conditions for Palestinians so horrible that they will either die or be forced to emigrate to one of the local Arab nations. At that point Palestine won’t even be a memory because what is currently left of Palestine will become European/American Ashkenazi colonies. The Ashkenazi Israelis like Livni don’t even want Christian Palestinians living on “Israeli” territory, their policy is racist.

        The Palestinians are “damned if they do and damned if they don’t”. Their resistance is not even a minor threat to Israel. Would the Israelis prefer the return of suicide bombings? The Palestinians are responding Militarily, but Israel still has an overwhelming advantage in firepower, 1,000 Palestinian Qassam rockets can’t even cause a fraction of the damage 1 hour of Israeli Artillery/Aircraft bombardment can. All these Tim R. style sob stories of running to the Bomb shelter are ridiculous. A barrage of Qassam rockets is like a strong Hail storm.

        Israel’s government is not interested in stopping the Qassam rockets(then the population may start to actually criticize internal policy), if they wanted to stop them they would treat the Palestinians like human beings. Cooperation and compassion are the only ways to improve Israeli/Palestinian relations, the problem is Israel’s Government sees its Palestinians the same way Hitler saw Germany’s Jewish population, as a “problem” that needs a “solution”. This is not acceptable.

        1. Bill K.

          You can have whatever opinion you want, but please, for heaven’s sake, get your facts straight. You write that the rockets from Gaza are no worse than a “hail storm.” Do you deny that the rocket attacks by Hamas have, indeed, injured and KILLED Israeli civilians? Do you deny that? I don’t deny the suffering and death in Gaza but it seems like the death of Israeli civilians is okay and not a problem in your book, right?

          And you mentioned suicide bombings. Why have the suicide bombings stopped? Could it be because the wall Israel put up is actually working?

          One other point, I like your well thought out, and brilliant comparison of Israel and Nazi Germany. Tell me, my dear Sir, how many millions of Palestinians have the Jews killed? Hitler killed 6 million Jews, over 11 million Russian civilians, over 2 million Polish civilians, hundreds of thousands of gays and lesbians, hundreds of thousands of mentally ill and mentally retarded Germans, and the list goes on and on. And of course we know that Nazi Germany did this deliberatly, with malice aforthought. So tell me how many millions of Palestinian civilians have the Isrealis deliberatly killed that you have the nerve to make such an absurd and ludicrous comparison?

        2. israelis are deliberately bombing civilians in an attempt to drive those civilians from land israel wants.

          you never have explained what right europeans have to move to palestine and terrorize people from their homes and land… why are you unable to explain that?

          are you too squeamish to admit that you’re an ashkenazi racial supremacist, and injustice towards non-jews is impossible because non-jews are not quite human?

        3. Wadosy,

          I believe that all human life is sacred. Jew or Non-Jew. In the Torah (ie the bible) it says that man was created in the “image of God.” So contrary to your belief, according to Jewish law, all life is equally sacred. In fact, Judaism is one of the few religions that does not say you must become one of us in order to get to heaven. The Talmud clearly states that a non-Jews who is a good person and basically follows the 10 commandments will have a reward in heaven and that their reward can be equal to or even more than what a Jew gets. So I don’t know what anti-semetic stuff you are reading about Jews.

          Secondly, as for Europeans moving to Palestine and stealing the land. I dispute your premise. First, where does the word “Palestine” come from? Do you know? And was “Palestine” ever and distinct nation? Ever? Please look into that. Also, the Arab Muslims in Palestine were collaborating with Hitler. It is a fact the the Grand Mufti met with high ranking Nazi officals and wanted to help him kill Jews. So don’t act like they have clean hands in the Halocaust, they don’t. As to the land itself, Some of the land was purchased by wealthy Jews such as Sir Moses Maimonedees and yes, some of the land was captured in war. No, it does not make it right, but that is the way of the world. Every single country that ever existed took over from someone else that they beat in a war. That does not make it right, but it is a fact of life. So why do you hold Israel to a higher standard? Are you going to give the deed to your house to a native American Indian and move back to Europe?

        4. I was waiting for this clown to play the “H” card. This is the standard Jewish “when all else fails say this” move. One, Palestinians had absolutely nothing to do with this and shouldn’t have lost their country to pay for something they didn’t do. 2) Vastly more Palestinians have been killed by Jews then vice-versa. It is not even remotely close.

        5. Comparing America or other countries to Israel is ridiculous on both historical and demographic grounds. This is all just rationalization and self-deception. Nothing more.

        6. But Tim, using your same argument how would you view the offer by Irgun to collaborate with the Nazis against the British during WWII? Does that mean that Irgun has the blood of the holocaust on it’s hands the same as the grand mufti?
          As for your statement that ‘there was no such country as palestine’ how does that legitimize your argument? It’s nonsense.
          Part of what makes the capture by war thing hard is that it occurred on the heels of the Nuremberg Trials one of which established the concept of crimes of aggression and crimes of attempting to acquire territory. “Well, we hung some nazis for it, but hey, you guys get a pass.” Doesn’t exactly smack of legalite, if ya know what I mean.
          And as for your ceaseless comparisons between this situation in palestine and the historical situation with the native americans, are you saying that you favor a policy that is tantamount to genocide?

        7. Timmy

          “get your facts straight.”

          You mean “twisted” like yours correct?

          “You write that the rockets from Gaza are no worse than a “hail storm.””

          Emphasis on STRONG Hail Storm, which can cause serious damage and injure and sometimes kill people. In no way comparable to the destruction caused by the Israeli Military on Palestinian property.

          “Do you deny that the rocket attacks by Hamas have, indeed, injured and KILLED Israeli civilians?”

          No I don’t, but lightning KILLS more people each year than Qassam rockets, perhaps you want to declare war on the Weather? To stop the deaths you need to find a solution that all sides agree on. In recent months not only Hamas has fired them, and in the past rockets were fired by other Palestinian groups(including Fatah/PLO many years ago). The question is WHY the Palestinians fire rockets, it is the same question as WHY did Jewish people(and obviously others) in Europe resist the Nazis with whatever they could?

          “I don’t deny the suffering and death in Gaza but it seems like the death of Israeli civilians is okay and not a problem in your book, right?”

          No you don’t deny them, you rationalize them by using phrases like “the Hamas terrorists were hiding inside bags full of UN Food Aid, and that is why they were destroyed” and such. But you are expressing false/fake sorrow for the deaths of Palestinians and many on this site already know this.

          The death of civilians, of any nationality, is a tragedy. I don’t categorize them into “special” groups like you.

          Qassam Rockets have no guidance system and don’t choose their targets. On the other hand, the Israeli Air Force’s GPS Guided Bombs can hit targets with accuracy to within 5 yards of the target(which they can identify on an LCD screen with camera equipped UAVs sitting in a room 100s of Miles from the battlefield), for this reason when they hit a school full of civilians they can’t say they did not intend to murder those civilians.

          “Could it be because the wall Israel put up is actually working?”

          Working in what way? Hamas agreed to stop suicide bombings, now there are threats to resume them. Do you really want to test the effectiveness of the “Apartheid” Walls?

          “Tell me, my dear Sir, how many millions of Palestinians have the Jews killed?”

          Indirectly or directly? Because the number is definitely in the tens of thousands, and with intent to kill.

          “And of course we know that Nazi Germany did this deliberatly”

          And when Ariel Sharon allowed(likely ordered) a Military assault on Palestinian Refugee Camps in Lebanon knowing that 1,000s would die he did it by “accident”?

          “that you have the nerve to make such an absurd and ludicrous comparison”

          Tzipi Livni is on record saying she wants to remove all Arabs(Christian and other) from Israel, even if they are citizens of the country. That is racist thinking. And now these “they had it coming” excuses. Israel’s Leadership views Palestinians as inferior and does not consider they have a right to live in their ancestral home. Hitler had the same view of Jewish German citizens. You simply deny the obvious.

  15. Just as in Israel, the threat of the belligerent ‘Neocrazies’, hell bent on war to impose their doctrine (and dominance) on the world, can create an existential threat where one did not exist.

    Israeli officials have engineered their own existential threat through policies of ongoing barbarism. The moronic reliance on brute force rather than diplomacy has united its strategic opponents (Lebanon, Syria, Iran)and risks an regional war.

    Similarly, the Georgian war against South Ossetia (killing Russian peacekeepers and citizens) has been interpreted as a U.S. proxy war by Russia. It has created the threat of conflict between nuclear armed powers where none existed after the collapse of the Soviet Union. The neocon need to create enemies is our greatest threat.

    The question is will Joe (must re-arm Georgia) Biden have as much influence in the Obama Administration as Dick**** Cheney had in the Bush Administration? This self-proclaimed Zionist does not represent much in the way of change to some. Certainly, with an Obama line up including Susan (never mind China, lets attack Sudan) Rice as U.N. Ambassador. ‘Rahmbo’ Emanuel, Hillary (I wear the pants) Clinton, Dennis (Israel’s Lawyer) Ross, Richard (Rambouillet Accord) Holbrooke and Robert Gates, this show looks pretty similar to the last show.

    So much for government for the people……

  16. why are you still building settlements on palestinian land?

    why are you herding palestinians into concentration camps, then bombing the concentration camps?

    so if that’s the way of the world, then i have every right, if i’m mightier than you, to steal your stuff, and kill you if you resist.

    very good.

  17. the thing you dont seem to realize is this… and it’s very important: you are demonstrating the destruction israel has wrought on jewish morality.

    zionist are no longer —if they ever were— moral people, and the record of israelis in israel, israeli americans in america, israeli russians in russia —just in the last few years— has demonstrated the corrosive effect israel and the defense of israel is having on jews.

    we’re supposed to ask, when something happens, “is it good for jews?” and “is it good for israel?”

    sooner or later you’re gonna have to ask yourself, “is israel good for the jews?”… and the answer is becoming clearer every day.

  18. True, in a certain sense, but it has been common knowledge since the 1940s that the main victims of bombing campaigns are always civilians.

    Lester Ness

      1. Is Israel good for the United States? What benefit does an ordinary American get from it? How is the quality of life improved for ordinary Americans by having 3-4 BILLION dollars of THEIR taxes appropriated EACH AND EVERY single year by Israel without their consent on it?

    1. is israel good for the jews?

      if “the main victims of bombing campaigns are always civilians”, and israel herds people into concentration camps and bombs them, that’s good for jews, on the grounds that “everybody does it, so that makes it okay”.

      judging from the world reaction to the gaza operation, israel’s behavior is not so pretty good for jews.

  19. And great of Eric Garris today to allow at access to relief aid agencies sent by a professor. None for tipsy Tzipi; she gets hers partly from our tax money, without most of our consent. Aid to Israel is taxation without representation!

  20. A lie told often enough becomes the truth. What evil genius, Lenin. And what attentive students the Israelis involved in the Operation Cast Lead ‘PR’ campaign are.

    Keep looking at the swinging watch…….
    There is no humanitarian crisis.
    Israel did not use illegal weapons in high density civilian areas.
    It is not an attack, it is ‘self defense’.
    Livni is actually a really nice person……..

    The sad fact is that these repeated suggestions do take root amongst the unquestioning (although many would never believe the last one). The irony of how close Israeli policy towards the Palestinians resembles Nazi policy towards the Jews, seems to have completely escaped Israeli officials. Blinded by their hatred and their own propaganda.

    1. “A lie told often enough becomes the truth. What evil genius, Lenin.”

      Umm, I believe that was Goebbels who said that.

      1. Bill, your right, Goebbels did say it but I believe Lenin also said it years before. No matter, who coined the phrase is irrelevant. The point is it is a propaganda tactic that is still widely used and to great effect on ‘the masses’.

        I’ll check this quote later.

  21. From what I’ve heard, the majority of wounded are double amputees – predominantly high up at the hip with loss of genitalia, have serious burns that doctors can’t treat, and many are simply brain dead. Experts are trying to figure out exactly what weapons were used – not like the Israelis are coming forward with information. If it’s not bad enough to pulverize a civilian population, why not take the opportunity to try out the effectiveness of new weapons?
    Some of the apologists on this board make me ill. During this war families spent every day in the dark crawling across their floors and keeping their children pinned down because if they got up or passed by a window, they would have been shot.

  22. As well as the horrific mutilations resulting from the use of WP, DIME, DU and cluster munitions, many of the survivors (including many children) will die slowly of cancer. The tungsten based DIME weapons are highly carcinogenic.

    As if the trauma of loosing family members was not enough to endure, many of the survivors have to anticipate (for themselves or their children) a slow horrible death.

    How many are likely to be charged with war crimes? In reality probably none. Already the Israelis are concealing the names of their military commanders.

    If it were not for the issue of racial allegiance that affects certain people’s judgments, every decent person would condemn these actions that constitute criminal ‘human’ conduct.

    USA, Russia and UN rams a definitive 2-state solution up Israel’s arse.

    I would advise a straight 50/50 split for the landmass, and a berlin wall between the 2 parties until things calm down, if ever. Also I would advise reperations for all of the Palestinians who got chased out of their homes and land that they legally owned by Stern Gang terrorists.

    Finally, I would put a NATO/UN base in the middle of the two new border, much like the KFOR base in Kosovo.

    Israel must be defanged of their a-bombs and weapons of war; their intentions are clear as day to all except the deceptive and blind; they want to complete their theft of Palestine by driving off the Palestinians.

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